2nd Amendment gives militia right to bear arms, not individuals

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ToadPS

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First, don't shoot the messenger!

This appeared on the editorial page of the KC Star on 12/3. I intend to reply, even though the Star is anti-gun and probably won't print any detailed rebuttal.

However, before I set keyboard to electronic paper and ink, I would like input from this knowledgable group. I know there are great quotes by the Founders, parts of State Constitutions, etc. that refute Prof. Ratzlaff (how's THAT for a name?) position that the 2nd is meant for militia only.

I would appreciate any input you folks might have with respect to refuting this man's position. I will post my reply before sending it off.

Thanks in advance!


http://voices.kansascity.com/node/2968

As I See It: 2nd Amendment gives militia right to bear arms, not individuals

By John R. Ratzlaff, Special to The Kansas City Star

On Feb. 23, 2001, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia gave a lecture at Princeton University as part of a conference: “A Constitution for The Ages: James Madison The Framer.”

Justice Scalia explained that he, like Madison, “interprets the Constitution according to the ‘common sense’ meaning and definition of the document’s words at the time they were written.” Scalia called his approach to constitutional interpretation an “originalist” view. Scalia said this view is flexible: “If it (a law) is stupid, pass a law!”

Last June, in the District of Columbia v. Heller, the Supreme Court struck down a Washington, D.C. gun ban. Justice Scalia, writing for the majority, said that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm for self-defense.

The words “individual” and “self-defense” do not appear in the amendment, nor are they found in the two principal documents upon which Madison based the Bill of Rights: the Virginia Declaration of Rights, and amendments suggested by his state’s ratifying convention.

Other relevant material about the bearing of arms appears in the Constitution or laws of some of the 11 states that ratified the Constitution prior to June 8, 1789, when James Madison proposed nine amendments.

New Jersey, Connecticut, Maryland and South Carolina had not yet adopted any provisions dealing with the bearing of arms.

New Hampshire laws (1783) stated that no person shall be compelled to bear arms.

The laws of Delaware (1776), Pennsylvania (1776), Georgia (1777), New York (1777), Virginia (1777) and Massachusetts (1780) are characterized by recurring common elements: The danger of a standing army; a well-regulated militia, and arms for the defense or security of the state.

None of these documents contain the words “individual” or “self-defense.”

Standing armies during peacetime (such as the presence of British troops in the colonies following the French and Indian War) were regarded as dangerous to liberty.

A well-regulated militia is, as expressed in the constitutions of Virginia and Delaware, “… the proper, natural and safe defense of a free state/government.”

Is there any doubt that the Third Amendment was a consequence of the forcible seizing of quarters in private dwellings during the French and Indian War and Parliament’s Quartering Act of 1765?

Likewise, the meaning of the Second Amendment at the time it was written seems explicit: The right to bear arms belongs to a militia for the purpose of defending the State.

If the Second Amendment (original meaning) is obsolete, irrelevant, or merely stupid, the remedy is evident: Pass a law!

Or, in this case, amend the Constitution.
That task belongs to the legislature, not the judiciary. But Justice Scalia, abetted by four other Supreme Court justices, abandoned the originalist principle, failed to heed his own advice for rectifying a “stupid” law, ignored judicial precedent and engaged in judicial activism.

John R. Ratzlaff is professor emeritus at Ft. Hays State University. He lives in Merriam.

Sorta makes your blood boil, doesn't it?
 
Believe it or not Penn & Teller’s Bull**** series has a really good interpretation of the second amendment.
But they said the subordinate clause was essentially admitting that a standing army was a necessity, and the main thought was that, because we are required to have a standing army to protect the country, and we see that as a threat to liberty. the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be in fringed.
 
Sorta makes your blood boil, doesn't it?

Not any more than it does every time one of these knuckleheads spouts off.

The main point of RKBA is to provide a final check against tyrannical government. It makes no sense for the very entity being kept in check to be regulating the means to do so. Thus, 4473s, NICS, etc, are infringements near as I can tell. Most folks don't want to admit that because it's just not very PC, global, utopian, etc. Folks want to trust government. To depend on it. A healthy distrust of government is becoming less and less popular. Hell, look at our so-called 'greatest generation'. They oftentimes seem awestruck by the government and appear to bow at that alter. I'm not sure when liberty started to die, but the pace definitely picked up when FDR started down the socialist track. People that marvel at and love that are apt to be very accepting of government control in the name of safety, particularly in the case of firearms.

The way the 2nd reads is 'in order to have a decent militia, folks need to be able to have the tools to be a part of it without government turning the thumbscrews'.
 
We really, really need to implement citizen militias again.

Unfortunately, those in power will never let that happen.
 
The Bill of Rights (BoR) doesn't "give" rights, it is supposed to protect rights from government infringement, like free speech (1) and due process (4), (5) and (8). People have "rights" and "privileges" under the Constitution and BoR, governments have "powers" and "authorities."

A well-regulated militia being necessary to a free state is one reason it is in the interest of the government to guarantee the right of the people to keep and bear arms (RKBA) but it is still the people whave that right, not the state (either capital State or United States).

I could easily argue that US v Miller 1939 (the only 'judicial precedent') engaged in judicial activism to preserve an unconstitutional law (1934 NFA).
 
It's good to finally get to post on a thread like this before sinixstar ruins it. The very definition of militia is armed individuals that gather together.

Federalist #46 Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. (Madison, 1788)

and furthermore from united states v miller 1939

The Militia which the States were expected to maintain and train is set in contrast with Troops which they were forbidden to keep without the consent of Congress. The sentiment of the time strongly disfavored standing armies; the common view was that adequate defense of country and laws could be secured through the Militia- civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.
The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time. (McREYNOLDS, 1939)

The stupid law that Scalia was probably referring to was the D.C. handgun ban. The mental disorder that is best known as "liberal intellectualism" causes those afflicted with it to think that when something is too logical to make sense to them that it is moot and should be done away with so that no one may question their inability to give an intellectual response.

Judicial Activism!!??? They were presented a case and ruled in favor of the people rather than the government. They ensured more rights given to the people. If there is ever any kind of judicial activism then please let it be that kind. I prefer it over stuff like Koramatsu and Wade.
 
Apparently he is unaware of what the Militia really is, and likely thinks that Militia = National Guard. Consider then this federal law...



TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 311

§ 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia;

and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

Unlike the Organized Militia (National Guard) the members of the Unorganized Militia are expected to provide their own arms and ammunition.

As has been pointed out, Heller made this a moot point, but it's always fun to call it to the attention of the anti-gun folks - especially if they are between the ages of 17 and 45. It also calls into question: Can a young man between the ages of 17 and 21 be prohibited from owning a militia weapon, such as a AR-15 or AK series rifle? Or how about a Beretta m-92 pistol? What about large capacity magazines? Believe me, you can have a great time... :evil:
 
Most soveirign countries since the dawn of history have raised armies and armed them. No country, from the most benign republic to the most vicious tyranny, has raised an army and not armed its members.
It makes no sense to interpret a amendment that states "a well regulated militia being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed," to mean that only those members who are organized into the force called upon to defend the state are lawfully able to "keep and bear arms."
It clearly states "the right of the people." Why isn't that clear enough?
 
It clearly states "the right of the people." Why isn't that clear enough?

It's selective stupidity or possibly selective intelligence on part of the author, not actually sure which one. But the symptoms are using emotional prejudice to ignore the words as they are plainly written.
 
It's so refreshing to see how closely geology and Constitutional law are linked.

I never knew a retired rock hopper had such greater knowledge on the subject than the justices of the Supreme Court
 
By his reasoning "The People" throughout the BOR is somehow different from "The People" in the 2A. How is that a logical conclusion? It simply isn't. The right of "the people" is consistently the individual right.
 
By his reasoning "The People" throughout the BOR is somehow different from "The People" in the 2A. How is that a logical conclusion? It simply isn't. The right of "the people" is consistently the individual right.

It has to be different, lest you want the unwashed to have guns. ;)
 
well i guess it's a good thing that it doesn't matter what HE sees and interprets!

thank GOD for that.


don't try to interpret it, it's not open for discussion, just read it as it is wrote, ".......SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED"
 
When the Bill of Rights says "the people" it refers to individual citizens. Anti-gunners have long tried to hold otherwise with the 2nd while maintaining that standard with all the other amendments but it didn't fly.

Define militia. Originally it meant any armed citizen who could be called upon in an emergency to defend home and country. We are all in the militia.

The 2ndA is crystal clear to anyone who isn't a Liberal moron. It recognizes the right of individual citizens to keep and bear arms. That means to own and carry.
 
Others have pretty much got it covered, but I thought I'd point out this one pet peeve of mine:

The words “individual” and “self-defense” do not appear in the amendment

As others have said, the word "individual" (as opposed to "the people") doesn't appear in the First Amendment, either.

But my main peeve is with the fact that this goon thinks "self-defense" should be articulated in the Second. Self-defense is more-or-less one of those "ninth amendment rights": not articulated in the Const. because it is self-evident!

It is a very regional thing, and based on case law, but this idiot clearly has no understanding of the Second, Ninth, or ANY amendment to the Constitution as he seems to think we have no right to self-defense unless it's articulated in the Constitution.

Alternately, he could be saying we don't have a right to use/keep firearms for self-defense, but according to my interpretation IF we are allowed to keep firearms at all (which the second DOES allow for, duh) then it is self-evident that we are allowed to use them for self-defense, since justified self-defense is justified self-defense...period. Whether you use a pickaxe, a gun, your hands, or heavy machinery.

I ranted, but you should probably respond point-counterpoint style if you wish to really reach anyone (if it's printed at all that is).
 
Heller affirmed Parker, in Parker is the clearest

explanation I've read


In determining whether the Second Amendment’s guarantee
is an individual one, or some sort of collective right, the most
important word is the one the drafters chose to describe the
holders of the right—“the people.” That term is found in the
First, Second, Fourth, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments. It has
never been doubted that these provisions were designed to
protect the interests of individuals against government intrusion,
interference, or usurpation. We also note that the Tenth Amendment—“The powers not delegated to the United States
by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are
reserved to the states respectively, or to the people”—indicates
that the authors of the Bill of Rights were perfectly capable of
distinguishing between “the people,” on the one hand, and “the
states,” on the other. The natural reading of “the right of the
people” in the Second Amendment would accord with usage
elsewhere in the Bill of Rights.

http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/docs/common/opinions/200703/04-7041a.pdf
warning long PDF but worth the read
 
John R. Ratzlaff is professor emeritus at Ft. Hays State University. He lives in Merriam.

His opinion on what the constitution means has exactly the same effect on what it means as mine, or anyone else...exactly none. He's just as clueless about how our system works as the people who post rants on internet forums.

Justice Scalia wrote the majority opinion for the USSC ruling. So it doesn't matter one lick what Ratzlaff or anyone else thinks about it. The USSC has been the final arbiter of what's constitutional and what's not, since Marbury v. Madison. Ratzlaff should just suck it up and live in reality. If he wants a new ruling, he needs to work to elect a president who will appoint justices who see things the way he does, work to elect senators who will confirm those justices, and then find a case to take before the court (that they will hear) and hopefully get the court to reverse itself. Who knows, maybe he will even live long enough to see some of that come about...but I doubt it. Changing that ruling will be a decades long process.

He's wasting good electrons, paper and ink with his uneducated, emotional rants.
 
Did a bit of googling regarding Mr. John R. Ratzlaff, his forte was in Geosciences. Now we know why he didn't teach law or was a lawyer.

Believe it or not Penn & Teller’s Bull**** series has a really good interpretation of the second amendment.

Great, we have a geoscientist contrasted with comediomagicians who also don't teach law and are not lawyers.
 
Hmmm, I wonder why he would ignore the much-publicized and well-known fact which blows his whole theory out of the water: the fact that in EVERY OTHER INSTANCE in the Bill of Rights, when the word "people" is used to describe who owns that right, the framers obviously meant (and the courts have always agreed) that "people" means individual citizens and other human beings, not militias or other GROUPS. Under his theory, the "people" who have the right to speech would mean only government-sponsored groups, not individuals.
 
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