2nd place!
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Jenrick
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Don't get me wrong I like the AR platform and it's relatives, but it does have some shortcomings compared to the shotgun in certains areas. For example I'd say that a .223 loses out dramatically in the ballistics department at the range most HD encounters will take place. There is no way to accomplish the same amount of work with a .223 rifle in the same time frame that a shotgun can.
-Jenrick
-Jenrick
Black Knight
Member
The shotgun is the most versatile weapons in a police forces arsenal. It can do most everything reasonably well except for long range precision shooting (a sniper rifle it is not). It can breach doors, take down suspects at close to intermediate range. If using slugs it can be used as a rifle at the same intermediate range and defeat some forms of armor. Those that say it is no good do not understand its capabilities. For precision shooting a rifle is better but if maximum force is needed the shotgun works best. The only advantage I see for the "assault rifle" is the amount of ammo is greater.
Well, ARs are not easy to get over here, they are restricted weapons at best, when not prohibited, and those available, except to police and other government agencies, are limited to five shots capacity because they are centerfire semis.
Between five shots of .223 and ten shots (centerfire maximum) of 00 buckshot and or slugs, what would be your choice?
Between five shots of .223 and ten shots (centerfire maximum) of 00 buckshot and or slugs, what would be your choice?
Ed Ames
Member
Shooting someone with standard 00 buck is exactly like shooting them with 9 rounds of solid lead .380. Welll...380 has about 200fpe, each pellet from a shotgun has around 160fpe.
.223 has around 1500fpe at the muzzle, which is actually not that far from 160*9.
There are big differences, of course. The .223 has different drywall penetration traits, creates a different sort of wound channel, etc., but in many ways the biggest difference is that each round of .223 is smaller and lighter.
Multiple 5rd magazines, but that's a tough choice. A decent .223 semi with a 5rd is a light, compact package, and mags swap quickly.
If I was in Canada I would be looking at the Keltec SU-16, Norinco Type 97, etc., which aren't restricted class guns if my weak understanding of Canadian law is correct.
Jenrick
Member
Louis Awerbuck referred to the shotgun as the poor mans submachine gun. Each trigger pull was equivalent to burst from a submachine gun.
If you look strictly at kinetic energy then you are correct a single .223 round has more "power." Take a look at momentum however. If you aren't familiar with momentum it is how much mass, how far, how fast. The normal SI unit for it is newtons, which is how many kg's can be moved 1 meter in 1 second. This is what equates most closely to the concept of "knockdown power," gun writers spend so much time debating about. Most 5.56 rounds will have around 3-3.5 newtons, which is about the same as a .40 S&W. Federal Tactical 8 pellet 00 buck has about 10 newtons. So even a reduced recoil load of 00 buck will have between 3-4 times the momentum of a 5.56 round. A full house load of 00 buck is between 4-6 times the momentum (Hornady's LM 00 buck load is 12 newtons if IRC). Slugs START at 11-12 newtons for reduced recoil and go up from there. If you would like to calculate momentum for yourself: mass(kg's)*velocity(m/s) Also if you've never seen a slug fired into ballistic gel, it flattens into a 2" diameter and cuts a 16"-18" wound channel. It's very impressive.
-Jenrick
200Apples
Mojave Lever Crew
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At residential home-invasion-assault defense distances, it's a 12 gauge pump and 00 buck for me. If not, then it's a .44 magnum Model 1892, shorter in overall length and lighter in weight than an 870 wearing an 18" barrel... and that very '92 w/ a 20" barrel carries 11 rounds in the tube.
.223? Bah. I don't need a "poodle shooter".
At residential home-invasion-assault defense distances, it's a 12 gauge pump and 00 buck for me. If not, then it's a .44 magnum Model 1892, shorter in overall length and lighter in weight than an 870 wearing an 18" barrel... and that very '92 w/ a 20" barrel carries 11 rounds in the tube.
.223? Bah. I don't need a "poodle shooter".
Deltaboy1984
Member
My 1982 870 Wingmaster is set up with Choat stocks and a 10 round tube extender plus a 15 round ammo sling. For my 1500 square,foot home it will take care of anything that needs to be shot.
Ed Ames
Member
Yes, that is the problem with shotguns, and the reason .223 is recommended. Nicely stated, though you glazed over why it is a problem.
It comes down to inertia, but I'll expand it this way: as the mass goes up (e.g. you go from 3.5 grams of .223 bullet to 31.5 grams of 00 buckshot), both recoil and penetration increase for a given muzzle velocity. Obviously penetration is important, but it is also dangerous when it comes to passing through typical houses.
Slugs are the worst case for this. Massive chunks of lead that are hard to get moving, and even harder to stop. They easily pass through many layers of drywall without much trouble.
The .223, by using a light but fast bullet, cuts the recoil and leaves a bullet that is far more likely to come apart or stop if it misses the target in a HD situation.
zb338
Member
Years ago I lived in New Jersey. Back then it was a shotgun state.
I saw many deer killed with shotguns and killed quite a few myself.
Believe me when I say, a shotgun has a lot of killing power. Forget
all the ballistic tables.
Zeke
I saw many deer killed with shotguns and killed quite a few myself.
Believe me when I say, a shotgun has a lot of killing power. Forget
all the ballistic tables.
Zeke
Ed Ames
Member
Nobody really questions the effectiveness of shotguns when used with appropriate ammo. What they question is the advantage over another type of firearm that is also very effective.
Jenrick
Member
Spherical shot will drop velocity and therefore penetration far faster than any pretty much any other type of self defense round if you have open air to slow it down (say an outdoor shot). Pretty much any self defense round (pistol or rifle) WILL penetrate common interior or exterior walls and usually will do at least 2 or 3. Is .223 usually better about this than most pistol and rifle rounds, absolutely. However buckshot is one of the few that can better it depending on circumstances. As each pellet as you noted above is light, which decrease the individual pellets ability to penetrate.
In short pretty much anything that will stop a threat, will punch through walls. For some experimental evidence: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/
I would recommend not basing your self defense weapon selection to any great extent on what happens if you miss your intended target. I'm not saying it's not a concern but it would be low on my list.
Please note, I'm not saying 5.56/.223 is a bad round, or that a carbine in that caliber is a bad choice. I'm saying don't count a shotgun out, as is just as effective in the HD roll.
-Jenrick
Ed Ames
Member
I'm not sure about that. I think the goal of limiting the consequences of NDs is a constant which applies to all phases of gun ownership: Selection, storage, handling, carry, training, recreation, combat, etc.. However, it may surprise you to note that it isn't my reason for not favoring the shotgun.
I try to experiment and evaluate my guns for myself, and in my experience buckshot won't reliably penetrate thin sheet steel. Specifically I had a PC mini-tower case from the 486 era. A .223 would drill a neat hole in it. A 7.62x54r would too. 9mm would rip a hole. So I was a bit shocked when some Rio low recoil 00 buck just put a dent in the case. I was even more surprised when some standard Federal 00 did the same. Slugs punched through with zero problem, and in fact hammered the case hard enough to knock it off my stand. I didn't have any fancy high wall ammo to test but I was left with a low opinion of buckshot.
I think it is far more cost effective, but not quite as effective. Meaning I can buy a usable 12ga for $200-$300 new. Pull the dowel and it'll probably hold 4 in the magazine. Not a bad choice. Closest I can come in .223 is a single shot. A worthwhile semi-auto is going to be at least $200 more.
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