3-die set versus 4-die set
- Thread starter WVGunman
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ArchAngelCD
Member.
I'm guessing you are talking about Lee handgun dies. If that's correct the 4th Die is a Factory Crimp die. I like the Lee FCD but there are others who do not. I think it's worth the money especially if you decided the buy a FCD later which will cost you a lot more than when bought in the set.
The Lee FC die is great for semi auto calibers and is worth buying for those and a 4 die set saves a little money over adding the FC die later. IMO not so useful for roll crimped revolver cartridges. I have one for .38/.357 but could easily do without it.
Blue68f100
Member
If you know how to setup your dies properly you will never need the LFCD. I've been reloading for close to 4 decades now and still do not own one.
Well, the powder die is also a case mouth expansion die which is good for lead bullets. I think throwing in the FCD is a good investment for the little extra it costs. Depending on the caliber, I use it to either crimp separately (38/357) or to close the bell (9/40/45).
I've found that with some of my cast bullets (depending on the alloy I use), the FCD does swage the bullet down when the die is screwed all the way in. My Ruger .357 doesn't care so I'm happy to run it all the way down and roll crimp with the FCD. With my 9 and 40, I put the FCD really high so the resizing ring just barely kisses the top of the case. This closes the flare on the case mouth and brings it back to vertical without swaging down the entire cast bullet length. The cartridges now pass the plunk test and are good to go.
I've found that with some of my cast bullets (depending on the alloy I use), the FCD does swage the bullet down when the die is screwed all the way in. My Ruger .357 doesn't care so I'm happy to run it all the way down and roll crimp with the FCD. With my 9 and 40, I put the FCD really high so the resizing ring just barely kisses the top of the case. This closes the flare on the case mouth and brings it back to vertical without swaging down the entire cast bullet length. The cartridges now pass the plunk test and are good to go.
mgmorden
Member
As already said, 4 die sets from lee include the Factory Crimp die. I personally have the FCD for 9mm and .38 Special (and 7.62 Tokarev, though that one works a bit differently). I really don't consider them necessary and don't use them anymore.
Lately I've been buying 3-die sets for whatever I need, and so long as Hornady is running their "free" bullet rebate, Hornady dies seem to be a better deal than Lee right now (though both work fine).
Lately I've been buying 3-die sets for whatever I need, and so long as Hornady is running their "free" bullet rebate, Hornady dies seem to be a better deal than Lee right now (though both work fine).
OP
OP
WVGunman
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Yeah, I'm looking at buying my first set of dies ever, for 9mm. Money is an issue, and the 3-die set is $29, while the 4-die set is $40+ on Amazon. It sounds like the 3-die would be fine.
The pistol FCD masks problems and can have adverse consequences.
Pros:
1. no feeding malfunctions on bad rounds
2. Can use the FCD to crimp after seating. Keeping crimping and seating in separate stages can reduce shaving of lead bullets and/or deformation of hollowpoints.
3. With 40SW, in particular, you can use the FCD as a push-thru sizing die to fix bulged cases. This technically works on any straight pistol round (not 9mm, which is tapered), but 40SW/10mm is the only one where this is typically ever needed.
Cons are related to the post-sizing carbide ring in the FCD:
1. can reduce neck tension on oversized bullets - potential safety/setback issue
2. can reduce bullet diameter of cast or plated bullets - potential accuracy and leading issues in addition to the first problem.
Bottom line, if the FCD is doing anything to the round, that's great that it won't jam your gun. But it might no longer be as accurate or safe to shoot. So do you want to find out there's a problem with your components/process via a jam, or do you want to potentially suffer leading, less accuracy, and even setback without being aware that it could actually be part of your process, rather than components? If you're a real stickler for good ammo, you would do a chamber check on your ammo to make sure it won't jam. If there are bad rounds, you would find and fix the problem - and set aside the bad rounds instead of squidging them to fit and mixing them in with the rest of your ammo.
I buy the 4 die sets for pistol, but I don't regularly use the FCD. It's there for emergencies. Like if I sold a gun and still had reloads, but now they jam in my other gun... I might be able to use the FCD to shoot them up. But I'm going to fix the process before I load any more.
Pros:
1. no feeding malfunctions on bad rounds
2. Can use the FCD to crimp after seating. Keeping crimping and seating in separate stages can reduce shaving of lead bullets and/or deformation of hollowpoints.
3. With 40SW, in particular, you can use the FCD as a push-thru sizing die to fix bulged cases. This technically works on any straight pistol round (not 9mm, which is tapered), but 40SW/10mm is the only one where this is typically ever needed.
Cons are related to the post-sizing carbide ring in the FCD:
1. can reduce neck tension on oversized bullets - potential safety/setback issue
2. can reduce bullet diameter of cast or plated bullets - potential accuracy and leading issues in addition to the first problem.
Bottom line, if the FCD is doing anything to the round, that's great that it won't jam your gun. But it might no longer be as accurate or safe to shoot. So do you want to find out there's a problem with your components/process via a jam, or do you want to potentially suffer leading, less accuracy, and even setback without being aware that it could actually be part of your process, rather than components? If you're a real stickler for good ammo, you would do a chamber check on your ammo to make sure it won't jam. If there are bad rounds, you would find and fix the problem - and set aside the bad rounds instead of squidging them to fit and mixing them in with the rest of your ammo.
I buy the 4 die sets for pistol, but I don't regularly use the FCD. It's there for emergencies. Like if I sold a gun and still had reloads, but now they jam in my other gun... I might be able to use the FCD to shoot them up. But I'm going to fix the process before I load any more.
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ArchAngelCD
Member.
I don't think that is a valid point. There are plenty of reloading tools which are not necessary but are desirable.
Carbide sizing dies are not necessary if you lube your brass properly the Steel dies work just fine. That's true but not many reloaders would buy a new set of Steel dies if Carbide dies are available.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Which press are you using? If you are using a single stage press the 3 die set is just fine because you will be saving a step. I am loading handgun ammo on a 4 hole Lee turret press so I have the 4th die station available and I use it.
mastiffhound
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Almost made a new thread, glad I looked here. My question is:
I'm looking to start loading .45 acp, and I'm confused as which is better for both lead and jacketed bullets, the FCD or the Taper Die? Does the FCD work the same way that my .223 crimp die works? How does the Taper Die work? This will be for autoloaders so I want what will keep malfunctions to a minimum.
If you were going to buy a set would it be the 4 piece with the FCD or the 3 piece set and then buy the taper die?
Sorry for the slight thread hijack but it seemed like the right place to ask. As always, thanks for the help guys!
I'm looking to start loading .45 acp, and I'm confused as which is better for both lead and jacketed bullets, the FCD or the Taper Die? Does the FCD work the same way that my .223 crimp die works? How does the Taper Die work? This will be for autoloaders so I want what will keep malfunctions to a minimum.
If you were going to buy a set would it be the 4 piece with the FCD or the 3 piece set and then buy the taper die?
Sorry for the slight thread hijack but it seemed like the right place to ask. As always, thanks for the help guys!
The 3 die set comes with a taper crimp die. You can buy an additional taper crimp die (better known as a "45 ACP seating die") if you want two of them.
The pistol FCD's do not work anything like the rifle FCD's. If you're shooting lead, it is highly unlikely that the FCD will do anything beneficial to your reloads and fairly likely that it will do some amount of harm.
The pistol FCD's do not work anything like the rifle FCD's. If you're shooting lead, it is highly unlikely that the FCD will do anything beneficial to your reloads and fairly likely that it will do some amount of harm.
Scimmia
Member
If you want to crimp in a separate step from seating, just get the FCD and knock out the carbide ring. It does great for crimping, it's just that damned carbide ring that's a problem.
I use the FCD on my .223 loads. The seating die does crimp them but I like using the FCD because I load up stripper clips and magazines that get jostled around and I don't even want to worry about any bullet setback and also they are possibly fired in more than one rifle. I feel better about the reliability of my ammo with the extra step, not to say if you don't use the FCD your ammo is not reliable.
Scimmia
Member
Rifle FCD is totally and completely different than the pistol FCD being discussed here.
I don't use the FCD for my pistols. But a question was asked about .223 so I gave an opinion.
dickttx
Member
I only load 9mm, 38/357, 38 Super, 41 Mag, 45 ACP and 45 Colt. And only about 15k per year.
I started reloading in the late 60's when the hot new thing was carbide sizing dies. I acquired Lyman carbide dies for the 38/357, 45 ACP, and 45 Colt which I reloaded at the time.
After about a forty year layoff I started again about four or five years ago. When I added the other calibers I bought the Lee four die sets. Then I replaced my Lymans with Lee four die sets.
I am not the best shot in the world and may be close to the worst. However, I have seen absolutely no ill effects from the FCD. All I load is lead, except for 9mm. If it squeezes the bullet down like some say it does not do it enough to have any practical effect on accuracy. Nor does it loosen the neck tension on any of the rounds. If it does, that means the user doesn't know how to adjust it.
If your cartridge is for a revolver the FCD does a roll crimp. If for a pistol it does a taper crimp. If you change bullets you don't have to start over, all you have to do is adjust the bullet seating die. The crimp die remains the same. As stated by others, the handgun FCD is a completely different creature than the rifle FCD.
If your FCD is squeezing down the cartridge it is because something else is wrong, not because of the FCD. In all likelihood if the FCD has to squeeze something down to SAAMI specs, the cartridge would not chamber anyway. This is what it is made for. A last step check.
Of course you don't have to use it, it just makes things easier. You could use a pipe wrench to adjust your dies, but a Crescent is easier. You can shift gears in your car, but an automatic is easier. And I don't feel like I have inferior intellect or sloppy habits because I use a FCD, a Crescent wrench, or an automatic transmission.
I started reloading in the late 60's when the hot new thing was carbide sizing dies. I acquired Lyman carbide dies for the 38/357, 45 ACP, and 45 Colt which I reloaded at the time.
After about a forty year layoff I started again about four or five years ago. When I added the other calibers I bought the Lee four die sets. Then I replaced my Lymans with Lee four die sets.
I am not the best shot in the world and may be close to the worst. However, I have seen absolutely no ill effects from the FCD. All I load is lead, except for 9mm. If it squeezes the bullet down like some say it does not do it enough to have any practical effect on accuracy. Nor does it loosen the neck tension on any of the rounds. If it does, that means the user doesn't know how to adjust it.
If your cartridge is for a revolver the FCD does a roll crimp. If for a pistol it does a taper crimp. If you change bullets you don't have to start over, all you have to do is adjust the bullet seating die. The crimp die remains the same. As stated by others, the handgun FCD is a completely different creature than the rifle FCD.
If your FCD is squeezing down the cartridge it is because something else is wrong, not because of the FCD. In all likelihood if the FCD has to squeeze something down to SAAMI specs, the cartridge would not chamber anyway. This is what it is made for. A last step check.
Of course you don't have to use it, it just makes things easier. You could use a pipe wrench to adjust your dies, but a Crescent is easier. You can shift gears in your car, but an automatic is easier. And I don't feel like I have inferior intellect or sloppy habits because I use a FCD, a Crescent wrench, or an automatic transmission.
I use the fcd on all calibers that i load. Uniform crimp = uniform pressure. Much more accurate crimp than with regular seating dies. To me it is interesting that some of your rounds dont re size and some do when using the fcd. More uniform ammo for autoloaders or revolvers hands down.
Average Joe
Member
Its only about $10 bucks more for the 4 die set, so why not ?
Uniform crimps are about uniform case length and careful die adjustments, regardless of the brand seater/crimper or crimp die you use.
The pistol FCD's claim to fame is post "sizing" and making things "fit". The crimp adjustment works just like any other crimp die, except for the fact the crimp ledge has a little give due to the o-ring on the crimp piece making it slightly more forgiving of case length. Of course the rifle FCD is oblivious to case length. It's a completely different animal.
The pistol FCD's claim to fame is post "sizing" and making things "fit". The crimp adjustment works just like any other crimp die, except for the fact the crimp ledge has a little give due to the o-ring on the crimp piece making it slightly more forgiving of case length. Of course the rifle FCD is oblivious to case length. It's a completely different animal.
Scimmia
Member
If you're the worst shot in the world, how do you know?
And how, exactly, are you supposed to adjust a fixed carbide ring?
Yeah, like larger bullets or thicker brass. Or simply a carbide ring that's smaller than it's supposed to be. It's been known to happen, Lee's QC is pretty bad.
Bull. Unless you've got a chamber that's well under spec, they'll load fine. Seriously, how many experienced reloaders here have had a round not chamber because it's too large diameter? I've seen it, but only in a 1911 that had a chamber so tight, a resized empty case didn't even want to drop in easily.
Of course you don't have to use it, it just makes things easier. You could use a pipe wrench to adjust your dies, but a Crescent is easier. You can shift gears in your car, but an automatic is easier. And I don't feel like I have inferior intellect or sloppy habits because I use a FCD, a Crescent wrench, or an automatic transmission.
If the Crescent wrench increased your chance of snapping the bolt, or the automatic transmission would only work on certain road, you might have a point.
gamestalker
member
I've been loading for over 30 yrs. without the FCD, never had any problems with set back at all. But I think I'm either going to buy or borrow one just for the heck of it for either .40 or 9mm, just so I can see for myself what all the controversy is about.
GS
GS
dickttx
Member
Scimmia, I am sorry you couldn't/can't get your Lee FCD to work. But I hope you don't begrudge me or the 10's of thousands of others who use them.
PistolPete45
Member
I just bought the lee 4 die set . have a Hornady set that some would not chamber . the FCD seems to have cured the problem .. only one of the 45's didn't like the Hornady cases but then I do want all my reloads to chamber in every gun I choose to fire ..
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