3 dot sights, can line up dots or notch and blade but not both

[breakingcontact]

I tend to be a bit particular, so let's get that out of the way.

But often with 3 dot sights, if I line up the dots, then the actual sights are not lined up, the front blade is low when you compare the front sight blade outline against the rear notch.

To actually line up the blade and notch, I have to have the front dot higher than the rear so they are not 3 dots in a horizontal line.

Anyone else notice this? What's up with this?

 

[rcmodel]

They are just a reference for fast shooting.

And if you are looking at the rear sight dots at all, you are doing it wrong.

Since your eye can only focus at one distance at a time?
Focus on the front sight and let the target & rear sight take care of themselves.

They will, automatically without you looking at them.

rc

 

[breakingcontact]

And if you are looking at the rear sight dots at all, you are doing it wrong.

Since your eye can only focus at one distance at a time?
Focus on the front sight and let the target & rear sight take care of themselves.

Absolutely.

I haven't shot for months and found myself shooting low, so I was taking very deliberate slow shots and that's why I even noticed the differing sight picture based on the 3 dots vs the notch and blade.

Apparently this is a "thing" on M&Ps. I can deal with it, I typically paint my back sights black and the front one red/orange, I'm just trying to figure out why it's like this.

 

[Dentite]

Apparently this is a "thing" on M&Ps. I can deal with it, I typically paint my back sights black and the front one red/orange, I'm just trying to figure out why it's like this.

Due to the physics of aligning your eye with the front and rear sights, it'll be that way with all three dot sights on all types of pistols.

As rcmodel mentioned, I view three dot sights for fast target aquisition rather than trying to make small groups with slow deliberate fire. I personally prefer black on black and align the tops of the sights but tastes change and I might change my mine eventually.

 

[breakingcontact]

I've seen photos though online showing 3 dot sight setups with the blade/notch and 3 dot sights showing simultaneously the correct arrangement. Is the camera catching something my eye cannot?

 

[dfariswheel]

If correctly made, (which a lot of them aren't) three dot sights should be in register with the iron sights.

Where it usually goes wrong is the two dots on the rear sight are placed too low in relation to the sight notch, or the dot on the front sight is placed too low.

 

[JDGray]

The correct sight picture is lining up the tops of the blades, focusing on the front blade. Like RC mentioned, the rest is automatic if you stare down the front sight.

 

[breakingcontact]

Which companies are known for getting it right? Which do it wrong? Why is it difficult?

 

[JDGray]

I know Sigs shoot low for me using the 6 o'clock hold, the impact is behind the front dot where I can't see

 

[breakingcontact]

This is really fascinating to me. I'm sure it's old news to some of you experienced guys. I've been shooting pistols only for about two years now and only productively for about half that time. I've always just lined up the dots, then I started blacking out my rear sights in order to help focus on the front and pick it up quicker. I did this about a year ago and was very happy with the results. Only recently did I notice a difference between the dots lining up (they're still in the back, just black) and the notch and blade lining up.

I have been lining up my front dot where it "should be" lined up with the other dots as that's how I learned how to shoot. Now I'll have to hold that dot higher so the top of the blade is flush with the tops of the notch. This should improve my shooting but will no doubt take some time to relearn.

 

[Archaic Weapon]

I hate three dots. I like, at most, a little brass or high visibility color at the top 1/4 or so of the sight. I also like thinner sights than "fast reference" sights. They are good for one type of shooting, but they get in my way more often than not. I also find that it makes it harder for me to teach people how to adjust their aim for different ranges and for them missing from shooting too high or too low. Instead of adjusting how much or how little front blade they take in, they just go on lining up the dots and aiming the gun higher or lower and guessing til they hit it. Does not transfer them to longarms well, and makes them terrible at unknown distance shots. Call of Duty and the like don't help, because that's how they show the sights being used.

 

[Archaic Weapon]

My latest .45 auto has to be shot high at close range, and then walked back down to the dots at a further distance. You should try to shoot a milspec 1911A1 with the blade sight like you would a Glock. It's both funny and sad to watch.

 

[wally]

I know Sigs shoot low for me using the 6 o'clock hold, the impact is behind the front dot where I can't see

They are regulated for a "combat hold" where you put the front dot on where you want to bullet to hit. Its a speed vs. accuracy thing. While you can't miss fast enough to win, its trivial to be slow enough to lose!

I've seen photos though online showing 3 dot sight setups with the blade/notch and 3 dot sights showing simultaneously the correct arrangement. Is the camera catching something my eye cannot?

Two things about this. Were both front and rear dots is clear focus in the photo? If so the photo was probably done with a view camera where the lens can be tilted to give non-parallel object and image planes -- pretty typical for professionally produced "still life" product photos. The second thing is perspective distortion. If you focus on the front sight the rear will look larger that it really is and if you focus on the rear the front will look smaller -- same reason railroad tracks look like they converge off in the distance.


Edit: I'm firming in the camp of plain black for the rear, so I paint any rear sight dots or bars black.

 

[breakingcontact]

So why the prevalence of 3 dot factory sights? Is it because it's an easy setup to shoot good enough?

 

[Archaic Weapon]

For beginners. They are popular with military, military contractors want public action, it was new, everyone else jumped on the bandwagon, easier to see fast, or in low light, they needed the size to make the new models accurate. One or all the above.

Beginners are common as dirt in the military.

 

[breakingcontact]

Here's a separate but related question then.

What distance are 3 dot sights typically zeroed at?

 

[Archaic Weapon]

7 yards? Self defense range, in my experience.

 

[HKGuns]

Well, that depends on the pistol...HK's generally are perfectly aligned. The value of the dots decreases with the US sight picture. The EU sight picture, where you line the dots across your target, seems more user friendly to me and is far more useful in a 3 dot setup. Why have dots if you need to look at the sight blades?

This picture isn't aligned perfectly, if it were you would see the dots and sights are in perfect harmony on the HK45c.

 

[9mmepiphany]

So why the prevalence of 3 dot factory sights? Is it because it's an easy setup to shoot good enough?

It is a crutch for beginners...just as white outline rear sights were before these.

Your focus should be on the front sight while you are looking through the notch in the rear blade. Dots on the rear blade only slow down your ability to align the sights because they draw your eye to the rear blade.

When we explain sight alignment to beginning shooters, we tell them to align the sights so that the top of the front and rear blades are level. As your skill level increases, you train your eye (subconscious) to perceive the alignment of the front and rear sights in their correct alignment...much like using Ghost Ring sights on a rifle. Looking at the rear dots to see that they are level with the front dot is as silly as looking at the ghost ring and trying to center the front blade.

As you become even more skilled, you'll train your subconscious to perceive, not only the rear sight, but the aligned sights when they form the perfect sight picture with the target. At this level, rear dots really become an impediment to placing shots accurately at any kind of speed

 

[breakingcontact]

Good comparison to ghost ring sights. Will keep blacking out my rear sights and painting the front hi viz or fiber optic.

 

[Archaic Weapon]

Glad to help. Thanks for listening.

 

[Ed Ames]

... I also find that it makes it harder for me to teach people how to adjust their aim for different ranges and for them missing from shooting too high or too low. Instead of adjusting how much or how little front blade they take in, they just go on lining up the dots and aiming the gun higher or lower and guessing til they hit it. ...

Ummm...what?

For clarity: If you aren't going to adjust the sights for the range you are shooting at (as in turn a knob), you should be holding over, not deliberately misaligning the sights. Maintain a correct sight picture (whatever that is for your sights) but aim high. If you know the range and the ballistics of your load you can calculate exactly how high above the target to hold. That same technique is exactly what you use with longarms as well. There are even aiming systems (e.g. mil dot scopes) to make choosing the hold over amount easier.


As far as the three-dots not lining up, that's a major pet peeve of mine. Especially with tritium sights. You can easily have a gun that aims correctly in low light but hits low or high in full sun. Very annoying. It isn't limited to three dots actually...I tried a set of ?Heine? Two dot sights (one above the other) that had a variation on the same problem.

 

[CDW4ME]

XS Big Dots really help in bringing your focus to the front sight.

 

[Archaic Weapon]

Um...I know how to put shots on target, and have found all that bullet drop ballsitics crap to only be semiacurrate on the range, meaning that you still have to shoot the gun, and not all sights are adjustable.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Ummm...what?

For clarity: If you aren't going to adjust the sights for the range you are shooting at (as in turn a knob), you should be holding over, not deliberately misaligning the sights. Maintain a correct sight picture (whatever that is for your sights) but aim high.

Actually that isn't how it is correctly done with a handgun. I won't speak to how to shoot a rifle as it isn't within my area of expertise. I understand holding over with a scope as you can still see your target beneath the intersection of the crosshairs

With a handgun, you first align your sights and than raise the front blade in the rear notch, to compensate for the additional drop, while holding your intended target above the blade. That is the way Keith used to do it and there used to be handgun sights offered with marks on the front blade for longer ranges

If you raise the aligned sights above your intended POI, you've lost sight of your target. How can you possibly hold consistently on a target that you can't see?

I tried a set of ?Heine? Two dot sights (one above the other) that had a variation on the same problem.

The technique for using the two dot sights...or the dot the "i" or dot over bar...is to learn the correct vertical displacement between them.