3" Mag 20 Ga. Buckshot A Waste!?

[MattShlock]

I just determined something quite interesting and useful, to me, frankly.

I was comparing the amount of energy, by the numbers, in the ubiquitous 2-3/4" 20 Gauge #3 Buckshot rounds vs. the 3" (used to be "Magnum") 20 Gauge #2 Buckshot rounds. I expected some options and a little more net energy out of the longer shell which also throws bigger (.27" vs .25") pellets if actually fewer of them (18 vs. 20). But after doing some research and the calculations what I found is this:


-Remington and Winchester apparently aren't even making 3" 20 Gauge buckshot shells now.

-Remington's standard 2-3/4" #3 Buckshot shell is a hair more potent than Federal's and Winchester's at claimed 1,220 fps vs 1,200.

-Federal's 3" #2 Buckshot shell, at 1,100 fps, has 8% less energy than Remington's standard 2-3/4" mentioned above.

Note: That Remington standard 20 Gauge round has 18% less energy than everyone's standard 2-3/4" 12 Gauge #00 Buckshot shells.


No interest in buying those 3" 20 Ga. Buckshot shells anymore and one might as well go with Remington given the choice...

 

[ugaarguy]

Energy doesn't necessarily equate to potency or effectiveness. What are the individual pellet weights?

 

[MattShlock]

In this case I'm sure it would.

All other things being equal we can, I'm sure, agree that if the energy delivered on target remained the same and there were the same number of projectiles to mirror the hit probability as well as wound channels, that bigger and heavier pellets might retain a little more energy farther down range although not penetrate especially more deeply. Remember, net energy being the same the projectiles will have to be slower.

In this case there are 10% fewer pellets, those remaining are slower, and their total net energy has gone down. In the end it is properly delivered energy that stops a threat. The bigger individual pellet weights incresse 26% and total weight of the load increases 13%... but has less capability from the start than its smaller Father.

 

[ugaarguy]

And it is energy that stops a target.

That's a highly debated topic. We do know that a projectile which penetrates deeply enough to disrupt the CNS is the only way to reliable stop a target. All else being equal it's also momentum, not energy, that determines penetration. Energy equals 1/2m*v[sup]2[/sup], but momentum equals m*v. I'd like to at least see some proper ballistic gelatin tests of the loads in question, or similar loads, before I made any judgement on effectiveness.

 

[336A]

if your disatisfied with some of those loads you can always go here
http://www.custombuckshot.com/

 

[gamestalker]

Which is why I started loading my own shot shells over 30 years ago. I had become completely fed up with this product, and that product being discontinued by Rem, and couldn't find a shell or brand that would do what I needed from a magnum load for turkey following Rem discontinuing the 3" copper plated BB Nitro mag. The end result was I came up with a magnum shell that put any factory to shame in fps, pattern control, and pure knock down power on big birds such as turkey.

I haven't looked back in years, and never will. Additionally, pattern control and velocity for dove and quail loads is something beyond what any factory shell has ever come close to in my experience. And for those who are interested, shot shell loading is simple to learn, and although it may not save one much if any money, it certainly offers an individual the option of tailoring loads to their specific needs.

GS

 

[MattShlock]

UG, the 3" shell only has 3.7% more momentum -- it's like taking your car and going from 55 to 57 MPH. Better example is putting five bags of sand in your 2,000 lb. pickup truck and driving at 50 instead of 55 mph.

Which is why I started loading my own shot shells over 30 years ago. I had become completely fed up with this product, and that product being discontinued by Rem, and couldn't find a shell or brand that would do what I needed from a magnum load for turkey following Rem discontinuing the 3" copper plated BB Nitro mag...
GS

3" copper plated BB? They got rid of their regular 2-3/4" lead BB which might have been the best 15-yard defensive round and was half the price of buckshot, except...

...the market basically gold-plated it and sells it now for triple the price as a home defense round!

 

[PabloJ]

There is very good defensive 2&3/4" 1 BK load available at better gun shops (NOT Walmart). That is what I intend to use in my 20ga Wingmaster Upland Special.

 

[mavracer]

While I agree that 3" buckshot is unnessary for SD, energy is a poor way to judge performance.

 

[336A]

There is very good defensive 2&3/4" 1 BK load available at better gun shops (NOT Walmart). That is what I intend to use in my 20ga Wingmaster Upland Special.

I've been researching the different available 20ga loads for some time now as I'm planning to purchase one soon. No major ammunition company has a 20GA #1 BK that I've seen, if there is one please post a link. The only #1 BK load for the 20GA that I'm aware of is the one I posted a link to up thread. Otherwise the largest Buckshot load for the 20GA as sold by the big 3 is #2 BK.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I use 38 +P 158 gr LHPs. There are 125 gr and 110 gr loads out there that have more energy and cost less to buy. I don't even consider them. Projectile weight plays a bigger role than theoretical calculations like muzzle energy can accurately convey.

 

[MattShlock]

While I agree that 3" buckshot is unnessary for SD, energy is a poor way to judge performance.

If performance has to be judged than how can you state '3" buckshot is unnessary for SD' unless you agree with me or have shot many attackers with assorted 20 ga. loads under test conditions!? Well, facts and contradictions be damned...

All other things being relatively equal, energy is a fine predictive indicator which is why it is used so comprehensively in comparisons. Sorry, but fewer, slower, pellets that are one size bigger with less total net energy implies ballistic capability just fine.

While I agree some gelatin tests might be interesting I don't need 'em after my analysis. And, taking the high road, I'm saving what I was gonna buy just for you...

LESS hits and wound channels, LESS speed, LESS energy, MORE money!

 

[rbernie]

I've shot a lot of 3" and 2/34" tactical and field buckshot on a dimly lit indoor range, patterning it from a variety of scatterguns. I have found that every single 'field' buck load that I have tested has been obnoxiously/distractingly flashy in a darkened range and most are stiff enough in recoil to significantly impact recovery time and second shot splits. The tactical loads may look less attractive in analysis, but they almost always use low-flash powders and provide much faster recovery times - both of which seem relevant to HD/SD but less so for use at field targets...

My experiences with all of this shooting has made me a firm believer in the simple logic of using HD loads for HD and field loads for field use.

YMMV.

 

[mavracer]

All other things being relatively equal, energy is a fine predictive indicator which is why it is used so comprehensively in comparisons.

No it's actually a poor predictive indicator. momentum is a much better predictive indicator. Also total momentum is less important than the individule pellets as it's the individule pellets momentum that determines it's performance and penatration.
Now as you pointed out there's not much difference in the momentum between these two loads and since the 2 3/4" #3 buck load provides sufficient penatration (IMHO) it is very adequate for SD.
While the 3" load might give you a bit more penatration, the fact that it doesn't pattern as well in my gun (which I might add is typical) and I lose 1 round of capacity makes it IMHO unnessary.

 

[MattShlock]

No it's actually a poor predictive indicator. momentum is a much better predictive indicator. Also total momentum is less important than the individule pellets as it's the individule pellets momentum that determines it's performance and penatration.
Now as you pointed out there's not much difference in the momentum between these two loads and since the 2 3/4" #3 buck load provides sufficient penatration (IMHO) it is very adequate for SD.
While the 3" load might give you a bit more penatration, the fact that it doesn't pattern as well in my gun (which I might add is typical) and I lose 1 round of capacity makes it IMHO unnessary.

Why would you imply the penetration of the 3" round is better when the pellets, of which you forgot to mention there are fewer (so fewer hits and wound channels), are slower and there is, again, LESS ENERGY (which you have also selectively chosen to dismiss as unipmortant) BEING DELIVERED TO THE TARGET?

Facts are a stubborn things mavracer: they cannot be ignored nor made up to support one's argument. At least it isn't taking the high road to do so.

PS: for men looking for better than standard 00 Buck loads where something like thos might be applicable to SD, look to the manufacturer's 0 Buckshot loads -- they offer a much better balance of effect and usefulness for most applications within shotgun range.

 

[ugaarguy]

Enough

This isn't going anywhere productive. I'll advise all to go do some ballistics research. This one is done.