Ok folks I am new to reloading and recently acquired 95% of the items I need to start reloading from amazing THR members. Really the only thing I NEED are dies. For the price point Lee dies will probably be used. For loading 9mm will I be better off using the 3 Die Set or 4? If it makes any difference I will be using coated lead SWC bullets initially. After that I may switch to either Berrys or Hornady HAPS and XTP's. But with the prices available on Coated lead it will probably be 124 or 147gr RN lead and XTP's for defensive loads. Thanks in advance.
3 or 4 die set?
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nettlle
Contributing Member
Resize/de-cap die
expander die
seat die
taper crimp die
expander die
seat die
taper crimp die
Buy the four die set if the price difference is no big deal (I don't know what it is), and put the fourth die (FCD) away for the time being. Learn to load ammo with the first three dies. The FCD can mask problems you would find other wise. You can always add it to the mix later.
dave333
Member
I would highly recommend seating and "crimping" in separate steps with coated lead, there are just too many variables to do both and not damage the coating, so go with the 4 die set.
With Lee, the 4th die is the factory crimp die and you will get plenty of folks who love and hate that die, I personally love it. If adjusted properly it does not swage down lead bullets. You can always get the 3 die set and order another Lee seating die to separate the seating and crimping if too many of the Lee FCD haters discourage you from using it.
With jacketed bullets seating and crimping at the same time is not really a problem, but I still prefer to seat and crimp them separately as well.
With Lee, the 4th die is the factory crimp die and you will get plenty of folks who love and hate that die, I personally love it. If adjusted properly it does not swage down lead bullets. You can always get the 3 die set and order another Lee seating die to separate the seating and crimping if too many of the Lee FCD haters discourage you from using it.
With jacketed bullets seating and crimping at the same time is not really a problem, but I still prefer to seat and crimp them separately as well.
The four dies are
a carbide sizer,
an expander,
a seater/crimper,
and the FCD, which is a crimp die with a carbide ring for "post sizing" the loaded round. The carbide ring is larger than that of the sizer and will "iron out" any fat rounds, whether from a bulge from a bullet seated crooked, or a flare not removed fully (seater crimper set up wrong), etc, etc. Which is why I recommend learning to set up the dies and load without it to begin with. Learn to set the dies up to eliminate the rounds that need "ironing out". Then you can add it to the mix for assurance later if you wish.
There is no reason not to crimp and seat in one step to begin with. Set up properly for 9MM it won't hurt a thing.
a carbide sizer,
an expander,
a seater/crimper,
and the FCD, which is a crimp die with a carbide ring for "post sizing" the loaded round. The carbide ring is larger than that of the sizer and will "iron out" any fat rounds, whether from a bulge from a bullet seated crooked, or a flare not removed fully (seater crimper set up wrong), etc, etc. Which is why I recommend learning to set up the dies and load without it to begin with. Learn to set the dies up to eliminate the rounds that need "ironing out". Then you can add it to the mix for assurance later if you wish.
There is no reason not to crimp and seat in one step to begin with. Set up properly for 9MM it won't hurt a thing.
Reefinmike
Member
I cant ever see a need for a 4th, factory crimp die. if you cant press together ammo with three dies, then you are doing something very wrong. The fourth die is capable of damaging bullets and reducing neck tension with thick brass or oversized bullets.
badkarmamib
Member
If you want to seat and crimp in separate steps, just leave the seating die backed off just enough to clear the case, and set the bullet depth screw. Seat all of your bullets, then go back over all of them with the seating die screwed down to crimp, but the depth screw backed off. At least, this is my understanding. The FCD seems to be one of those things that is unnecessary, but helpful if it is used properly.
thomas15
Member
I basically agree with dave333 except I don't "love" the factory crimp die. For the OPs application it will be easier to back off (unscrew) the seating die about 3 turns and then use the stem adjuster to seat the bullet to the correct depth. Then use the fcd to apply a light taper crimp.
But for a little bit more money you can buy a dedicated taper crimp die instead of the fcd.
A few random thoughts...
I have found that for lead, plated or coated pistol bullets it is hard to get the seating/crimp die to work reliably. Why punish yourself when a four die system eliminates the problem?
For some reason I get 1 or 2% of my 9mm reloads using range pick-up brass that will not case gage. It doesn't matter if I use a fcd or not I still get the rejects. I gage every single one of my rounds.
The 9mm cartridge is not a straight wall cartridge. It has a slight taper. While no fan of the fcd, the only way the sizing ring on that die will swage the bullet is if the die is cranked to the limit causing an over cam. True it can put a lot of crimp on the bullet but any taper crimp die can do that.
While you can use any die or combo of dies you want in a Dillon progressive, Dillon markets their presses with the idea that the handloader will use a separate seating and crimp die.
A rifle handloader generally trims their cases to a uniform size which makes using a combination seat/crimp die easy to use. I know that from first hand experience. I also know from experience that using as assortment of brass with lead pistol bullets makes using the combo die difficult.
But for a little bit more money you can buy a dedicated taper crimp die instead of the fcd.
A few random thoughts...
I have found that for lead, plated or coated pistol bullets it is hard to get the seating/crimp die to work reliably. Why punish yourself when a four die system eliminates the problem?
For some reason I get 1 or 2% of my 9mm reloads using range pick-up brass that will not case gage. It doesn't matter if I use a fcd or not I still get the rejects. I gage every single one of my rounds.
The 9mm cartridge is not a straight wall cartridge. It has a slight taper. While no fan of the fcd, the only way the sizing ring on that die will swage the bullet is if the die is cranked to the limit causing an over cam. True it can put a lot of crimp on the bullet but any taper crimp die can do that.
While you can use any die or combo of dies you want in a Dillon progressive, Dillon markets their presses with the idea that the handloader will use a separate seating and crimp die.
A rifle handloader generally trims their cases to a uniform size which makes using a combination seat/crimp die easy to use. I know that from first hand experience. I also know from experience that using as assortment of brass with lead pistol bullets makes using the combo die difficult.
bought a 3 die set and will be able to start reloading two days before my 40th. Turns out somehow I had a 10.99 gift card credit on my amazon acct so got the little Lyman pistol loads free and still saved on the dies too.
kerreckt
Member
I started reloading in 1982 and I've never had a problem with the Lee FCD. I only use it when I absolutely need it. That is probably 1-2% of the time. In those times it can't be beat, but these are not match rounds.
Considering that a set of reloading dies, if properly cared for, will last a lifetime, the difference between Lee and other brands like RCBS, Lyman and Hornady is not significant.
I load .38 Special and .45 ACP using Lee Speed Dies. These used a single die body with removable sizer ring to perform all functions. They were intended for reloaders making only a few rounds at a time. They are no longer made.
Other than my 9mm Parabellum 3-die set, all of my other dies are either from Lyman or RCBS. I know I'm a minority here, but my 9mm Lee dies have been less than satisfactory. The sizer works fine, but I found the Expander difficult to adjust to get proper expansion without belling the case neck and about 1 round in 10 come out of the Seater with the bulge of a bullet that is slightly canted - probably due to inconsistent expansion of the mouth. I know this is probably attributable to my lack of familiarity with the dies, but I have this problem with no other set of dies that I own; all of which have made physically and cosmetically perfect ammunition right out of the box (once set up according to the instructions in the box).
Thirty years from now, the OP might consider the extra $20 to be money well spent.
FROGO207
Member
I always get a chuckle out of the use the FCD/or NOT use threads. I reload 40+ different calibers. I own many different brands of reloading dies as well. I Own at least 12 FCD. My question is if the FCD is so necessary how did the other companies dies make accurate ammo----and still do---without this item? I have tried it both ways with the sets that have a FCD and found no measurable advantage in using it (with correctly assembled ammo). Conversely there are lots of instances where accuracy became worse if I used ANY type of crimp. Especially in the 223/5.56 and the 308/7.62X51 with my testing of MY handloads. I do however use one when reloading for tubular MAG firearms as they require a firm roll crimp and I can cheat and not have to length trim every piece of brass every time to get a consistent crimp. I use it in the 30-30 and with a modified 30-30 die in the 32 SPL with excellent results. If you see an improvement in your ammo when using a FCD then by all means use one. But test out ammo with and without yourself. Do not take the word of someone posting on the internet as gospel. YMMV
Those are of course rifle calibers and that FCD is distinctly different form the standard pistol caliber FCD with the carbide "post sizing" ring, which is what this particular "debate" is about.
But yes, FCD threads can be anywhere from frustrating to entertaining.
But yes, FCD threads can be anywhere from frustrating to entertaining.
gojones
Member
Well, for what its worth, I have FCD in all my pistol and rifle. In pistol it comes in handy for straightening over-flares and bulges. I don't use them all the time but there times when you find them useful.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
You have another option. You can buy the Lee 3 die set without the FCD and add a crimp die that Lee now offers if you want to crimp in a separate operation. I prefer to seat the bullet and crimp separately.
http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/taper-crimp-die/
http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/taper-crimp-die/
TimSr
Member
Get a 3 die carbide set and learn to crimp correctly. A good roll crimp might take a little finesse, but if you can't master a taper crimp in a pistol cartridge within a couple of pulls, you're going to have a rough time with the rest of the operation.
I've never found a reason to do a taper crimp in a separate operation. Roll crimp, maybe, but taper crimp, never.
I've never found a reason to do a taper crimp in a separate operation. Roll crimp, maybe, but taper crimp, never.
gwpercle
Member
Go with the 4 die set. Easier to use , especially when loading cast bullets.
You can do cast with a three die set , you just have to keep resetting your seating and crimping die. With soft cast bullets it is best to seat the bullet first and then crimp in a separate step. Doing this cuts down on shaving lead from the side of the bullet . Jacketed bullets are harder and can be seated and crimped in one step .
Gary
You can do cast with a three die set , you just have to keep resetting your seating and crimping die. With soft cast bullets it is best to seat the bullet first and then crimp in a separate step. Doing this cuts down on shaving lead from the side of the bullet . Jacketed bullets are harder and can be seated and crimped in one step .
Gary
A lead bullet with a proper crimp groove can be easily seated and crimped in one step. One can still do it in two of course, but they don't have to, and setting up the seater/crimper to do it in one step isn't hard to do.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7699828&postcount=14
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7699828&postcount=14
Jesse Heywood
Member
I have several different calibers and die sets. Initially I thought the FCD would solve my problems. But the FCD only masked the problem. I learned to properly adjust the seater/crimp die and my problem disappeared. I recently found the FCDs and asked myself why did I buy those?
With the 9 X 19 case you need only an absolute minimum of crimp. I go just beyond a hair of crimp beyond the case body. Which helps, since the 9 mm spaces on the case mouth.
With the 9 X 19 case you need only an absolute minimum of crimp. I go just beyond a hair of crimp beyond the case body. Which helps, since the 9 mm spaces on the case mouth.
Lost Sheep
Member
Lee FCD, a Virtue or a Vice?
Many people like the Lee Factory Crimp Die (the 4th die in a 4-die set) and many people see it as a crutch best melted down for scrap. A virtue or a vice.
I recommend you research these threads and decide for yourself.
http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/vi...=1684875&hilit=+virtue+and+the+Vice+#p1684875
http://rugerforum.net/reloading/65863-lee-fcd-pistol-not-rifle-virtue-vice.html
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=691050&highlight=the+virtue+the+vice
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509934&highlight=virtue+the+vice
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=691028
Many people like the Lee Factory Crimp Die (the 4th die in a 4-die set) and many people see it as a crutch best melted down for scrap. A virtue or a vice.
I recommend you research these threads and decide for yourself.
http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/vi...=1684875&hilit=+virtue+and+the+Vice+#p1684875
http://rugerforum.net/reloading/65863-lee-fcd-pistol-not-rifle-virtue-vice.html
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=691050&highlight=the+virtue+the+vice
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509934&highlight=virtue+the+vice
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=691028
Note that the Lee FCD for bottlenecked cartridges is TOTALLY different from the Lee FCD for straight-walled (or tapered, like the 9mm) cartridges
greyling22
Member
If you are loading lead, and it appears that you are, I'd avoid the fcd. Lead likes a fat bullet. And the fcd swags it down to undersize and causes poor accuracy. I like it for jacketed bullets and rifle but bullets, be it I gave them away for my lead calibers.
Also, 9mm is a hard caliber to successfully loaf lead for. A lot of folks have no problem and great results, but many more struggle and struggle.
Also, 9mm is a hard caliber to successfully loaf lead for. A lot of folks have no problem and great results, but many more struggle and struggle.
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