3 questions from a soon-to-be reloading guy

[jamesmhebert]

Hello!

I'm a relatively new handgun owner (S&W 627 Pro revolver) and soon to be new reloader. I have a questions about purchasing the components of a cartridge, and how to go about starting with the powder I have in mind.

I'd like to reload practice rounds with .38 Special-ish reloads using .357 casings, for a couple of reasons... they're easier on my wife's hands. She has arthritis in her hands, and as a faux finish painter, her hands usually hurt to some degree. Also, after shooting true .38 specials for a while, it's often hard (or not possible without cleaning) to chamber .357 rounds because the shorter .38's have left the cylinder too clogged and dirty to fit .357 cases. I do like to shoot some .357 before calling it a day.

1) For bullets and casings, is a recipe flexible as long as you match the specs of the component in question (but not powders, I realize)?

Occasionally a recipe calls for a bullet I can't find, or a casing I cannot locate. Is it permissible to use another bullet of the same weight and shape but from another manufacturer?

2) I've read a lot about Trail Boss powder, and it sounds appealing. Unless I'm wrong, I have the idea I may be able to use it in .357's and it will serve my purpose. Good idea, or is there a smarter/better choice?

The Lyman book doesn't show a .357 load for Trail Boss. What is a reasonable starting point, and range, for recipes using say, a 125 and a 158 grain bullet?

3) Lead bullets vs jacketed bullets. I've read many threads about it, with folks saying Hogdon doesn't recommend jacketed, and others saying they've done it and it's fine.

New reloader guy wants to keep the cost reasonable, and his revolver easily cleanable. What should I consider in making this decision? I'm at a loss here to determine which way to go.

As you can see, some new-guy questions to be sure. Be gentle, but don't hesitate to educate me! Before I load one cartridge, I'd like to have the confidence that I've done the right things.

Thank you.

 

[noylj]

1) It used to be that all the reloading manuals really referenced was bullet weight and lead or jacketed bullets. I believe that if you check the Hornady manual, you will see that they reference all the same loads for their jacketed bullets of the same weight. This, however, applied only if the bullets are of the same construction. All copper bullet or bullet with steel or tungsten inserts would have their own loading data but, in general, a JHP is not only the same as another JHP but also the same as a FMJ. You will have to load the COL that best works for your gun, but you always start at the starting load and work up to, but don't exceed, max load and you are responsible for determining if max in your gun is somewhere below the listed max load.
2) Trail boss in mainly for light target loads in old black powder cases that are HUGE compared to the amount of smokeless powder required. Yes, you can use it in .357 Magnum, for light target loads of about 750fps. Call Hodgdon, but the powder can not be compressed, so a max load would be the powder at just below the seating depth of the powder, weigh the powder, and start at 70% of that value (see attached pdf file). However, some people have had problems with that and you should only use recommended load that are published by reliable reloading companies.
I have this information from IMR/Hodgdon:
.38 Special

STARTING LOAD - Case: Win. / Primer: WSP / Barrel: 7.7" / Bullet: .357", 158 grain LSWC / Powder: 2.7 grains Trail Boss / MV 661 fps / MAP: 11,400 PSI.

MAXIMUM LOAD - Case: Win. / Primer: WSP / Barrel: 7.7" / Bullet: .357", 158 grain LSWC / Powder: 4.2 grains Trail Boss / MV 804 fps / MAP: 13,700 PSI

.357 Magnum

STARTING LOAD - Case: Win. / Primer: WSPM / Barrel: 10" / Bullet: .357", 158 grain LSWC / Powder: 3.2 grains Trail Boss / MV 754 fps / MAP: 16,500 CUP.

MAXIMUM LOAD - Case: Win. / Primer: WSPM / Barrel: 10" / Bullet: .357", 158 grain LSWC / Powder: 4.2 grains Trail Boss / MV 865 fps / MAP: 20,400 CUP.

3) What are you asking? Can you use jacketed bullets in your gun? If a modern gun, yes.
Can you use Trail Boss with jacketed bullets? One would think so, but again you need data from a reliable reloading company and not just my opinion.
Can you use the same loading data for jacketed as lead? No, jacketed generates more friction than lead and yet lead will sometimes reach max pressure long before similar jacketed bullet.
The lead bullets, however, are at least 0.001" larger in diameter and are often at least 0.002" larger. Also, many barrels have a groove diameter in excess of the nominal jacketed bullet diameter. Jacketed bullets of 0.355" can shoot very accurately in barrels with a groove diameter of 0.358". They do not suffer gas cutting to the same extent as lead bullets.

 

[rfwobbly]

James -
Welcome to reloading. Let me see if we can be of assistance....

1) Cases: If you are using 38 Spcl brass, then you want to follow published loads only for 38 Spcl. Likewise, if you are using 357 Mag brass, then you want to follow on the loads listed for 357. The difference in the internal volume of the case will affect the pressure generated by the round in the chamber, and you want to work very hard not to exceed the pressure limits. Follow?

Bullets: Generally speaking you can use the loads in your manual as long as the bullet construction and bullet weight are the same. Suppose you found a load for "Rainer plated 158gr", but you bought Berry plated 158gr. Then you could use that load. They are the same weight and construction. Conversely, you should NOT use a load for Hornady jacketed 158gr on a lead or plated bullet, even if the weight matched.

2) Just because a load is not shown doesn't mean you can't use it. It simply means it's not a popular load. First place to look is on the manufacturers web site. They have a lot more space there to publish oddball loads. Second best is to call the manufacturer of the powder. They've worked up a load for almost every powder with every bullet. Obviously, due to space, they can't print all these.

3) Lead bullets are cheap, but come with several caveats that I personally like to steer a new reloaders away from. IMHO plated bullets are a much better place for you to start. Look at the Berry Manufacturing web site and read about them.


Additional
You talked some about your wife and shooting. The topic you mentioned is what we call "felt recoil"; that is, the power impulse you feel in your hands. You can reduce this several ways: lighter "target" loads (possible when you reload your own ammo), slower burning powders (consult a powder burn chart), surface area of the grip (maybe a larger handled gun would be better for your wife), and a heavier gun will absorb more energy and snap-back less. The S&W 638 is a great carry gun, but would be one of the last guns I'd go target practice with. I'm no wimp, but 20 rounds through one of those and my palms would be hurting too! Next time you go to the range you can rent an all-steel 4" barrel 357 and compare the difference side-by-side. I think you'll be amazed.

The Hodgdon Reloading Data is HERE

The Hodgdon burn rate chart is HERE


Hope this helps!

 

[jamesmhebert]

Okay! Thank you both, noylj and rfwobbly. That does help.

I'm confident in my understanding of the difference between 38 special brass and 357 brass and the appropriate load for each, so no confusion there. ;-)

Where I tend to get stuck is, if I can only find a lighter or heavier bullet than a recipe calls for, or a plated bullet when the recipe specifies lead, how should I go about determining a proper and safe load for it? Is it just best just to state the specs and ask here? I don't have any local experts to consult that I know personally. At the same time, no desire to be a bother at THR, either.

My 627 is a heavy revolver, and 38 specials are a pleasure to shoot in it for me. My wife still has some complaint there. I'm hopeful that a lighter Trail Boss load in 357 brass will be both easier for her to shoot, and easier for me to clean.

My apologies for not being clear about jacketed versus lead bullets... it's a little foggy to me, to be honest, which way to go.

In this, I want to err on the sides of safety (this is quite new to me, and Trail Boss sounds pretty goof-proof), low-cost (for starters, nothing fancy needed here), and "easy clean-up." I figure that once I have confidence with this, I can begin to explore and consider different loads, bullets, or powders. I'm looking for that "where to start" sweet spot that lands me in known territory first.

Thank you again, and feel free to point out anything else you consider worth passing on!

james

 

[jamesmhebert]

P.S. And if I'm just not thinking straight, feel free to tell me "get this bullet, get that powder, use this much, and get on with it!" if that's simpler.

I can over think this stuff.

 

[MEHavey]

Try the first four 38Special options from here:

http://www.mastercast.net/mastercast.net/Remanufactured_Ammo_Retail_Sales.html

`Can't get much milder/popgun recoil (or cheaper cost).

The other (reloading) option is the "...traditional 148 gr WadCutter w/2.8 gr of Bullseye."
http://www.reloadammo.com/38loads.htm
There are some real low velocity/light bullet loads there... but start traditional as most straightforward.
(Remember that WC's fit near flush with the case lip, though. So buy/shoot a few and you'll get the idea all`round.)

 

[jcwit]

Conversely, you should NOT use a load for Hornady jacketed 158gr on a lead or plated bullet, even if the weight matched.

I will take exeption to this as a lead bullet close to the same weight as a jacketed bullet "within 5 grains" is much much easier to swedge itself to the rifling than a jacketed bullet. Also lead itself is somewhat of a bearing metal alot more so than a copper jacket even discounting the fact of the lube in the cast bullet groves, be it a wax or grease or whatever.

Again the old rule is to start low and work up! Furthermore if paper punching you're not killing the paper, just working for accuracy.

 

[Walkalong]

The others pretty much answered your questions but I will add these things.

For very light loads lead is the best. It takes less powder to get it going than plated or jacketed. Less powder equals less recoil.

I load light (even for .38 Spl) loads in .357 brass for shooting in .357 guns. Most just use .38 cases, but I like to use .357 cases for the reason you noted.

I use light charges of WST, Clays, or Competition for light loads in .357 cases using 125 Gr & 148 Gr bullets. Very accurate and very light. Trail Boss should work here as well, but I have not tried it. Trail Boss is much better with lead than plated or jacketed bullets.

Buy some soft lead 148 Gr DEWC's such as these or these. Load them up in your .357 cases with a light charge of fast pistol powder (2.7 Grs Bullseye is a classic load in .38 cases) and they will be accurate, clean, and very soft shooting.

 

[cfullgraf]

To add to the confusion, not all lead bullets are equal. There are three basic types, swaged, alloy and gas checks.

Swaged bullets are generally pure lead and are very soft. Usually the velocity limit with them is leading of the barrel not pressure limit of the cartridge.

Alloy lead bullets are generally cast bullets. The hardness of the alloy can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer to home caster. They can handle higher velocities before leading occurs but it depends on the hardness of the alloy.

Gas check bullets are hard alloy cast bullets with a short copper cup on the base of the bullet. Of all the lead bullets, these can handle the highest pressures and velocities. Generally, gas check bullets are used in rifle rounds but there are gas check bullets available for cartridges such as 357 Mag, 44 Mag, and the current crop of hand cannons.

The loading data for the various types of lead bullets, plated bullets, and jacket bullets, while they overlap, are not interchangeable per se.

Always use data from a reputable sources.

 

[Walkalong]

Yep, but what he needs are soft lead bullets for low pressure, low velocity, light recoiling loads for his wife.

 

[RandyP]

One suggestion coming from the issue the other way around - lol - why not just shoot your .357 full power ammo first and then switch to low load .38s?

You will then of course clean the cylinder when you get home and be all set for the next time.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

As you have learned, Trail Boss is a good powder for less-educated reloader. For data on Trail Boss and other powders from the Hodgdon / IMR / Winchester family go to http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
Trail Boss was introduced in 2005, so only the most current manuals will have data. Some companies simply copy the manufacturers data, while other do their own testing, which delays things.

 

[cfullgraf]

I'd like to reload practice rounds with .38 Special-ish reloads using .357 casings, for a couple of reasons... they're easier on my wife's hands. She has arthritis in her hands, and as a faux finish painter, her hands usually hurt to some degree. Also, after shooting true .38 specials for a while, it's often hard (or not possible without cleaning) to chamber .357 rounds because the shorter .38's have left the cylinder too clogged and dirty to fit .357 cases. I do like to shoot some .357 before calling it a day.

38 Special loads can be loaded in 357 mag cases but the powder needs to be adjusted to account for the different case volume. The 357 would require a little more powder. Consult reputable sources.

The advantage of using exclusively 357 magnum cases is you won't build up some powder residue in the chambers in front of the 38 Special cases which could prevent the 357 magnum cases from chambering.

Frequently, swaged bullets can be found at lower cost than cast and would be good choices for light loads.

Lots of good options posted for you to digest.

 

[noylj]

1) As I said, use jacketed data for jacketed bullets and lead data for lead and plated bullets.
2) Most plated bullets have very thin plating and it is easy to damage the plating. Damage from bullet seating or crimping or shooting at too high a velocity will expose lead to the bore and you will get very poor accuracy and your barrel will be leaded. I much prefer real lead bullets or real jacketed bullets. Plated bullets give you for worst of both worlds and, in general, less accuracy.
3) You can use .38 special loading data for your .357 magnum, but you must be sure that the bullet all exit the barrel. People have been shooting very light loads in .357 Magnums for 60+ years. I never liked using .38 Special cases in my .357 Magnums, so I loaded target loads in .357 Magnum cases and adjusted the load to get about the same velocity as the .38 Special. This is one area where TrailBoss would come into its own.
4) I do not recommend L-HBWCs in a revolver, but a good solid wadcutter (DEWC or the like) loaded out so about .25" of the bullet is in the cylinder throat. A slightly heavy load (still being a very weak relative load) in a revolver is likely to leave the bullet skirt in the bore while the forward part of the bullet goes on to the target. You then have a barrel obstruction that you don't know about because the bullet did exit the bore and hit the target. Thus, particularly for the beginner, use a solid wadcutter.

 

[Walkalong]

I'll have to disagree with noylj on the plated bullets. They are not nearly as fragile as he makes out and can be quite accurate.


Lead HBWC's are perfectly safe in revolvers if appropriate load data is followed, as with any bullet.

Your point is a good one though. Too heavy of a load can cause just what you described. Certainly something to be aware of, and something that is covered in reloading manuals.

.38 Spl loads can be used as is in .357 cases. There will be a slight loss in velocity. For the light loads with fast pistol powders .1 more grains will usually be enough to get it back in .357 cases.

 

[noylj]

Walkalng:
I'll pit my swaged or cast 148gn lead bullets against anybody's plated wadcutters and I am sure that my loads will beat their loads.
Begin personal rant:
Any discussion about bullets has to based on the need, and one-size does not fit all.
Been there, done that. Seen the plating damaged by my die set-up for lead. Still have about 300 plated wadcutters if anyone wants 'em. it was the difference between 1" and smaller groups at 25 yards and 3" at the best groups.
At the same time I tried plated and jacketed 200 gn SWCs in my .45s and my RCBS SWC-201-KT (or whatever designation) cast bullets were head-and-shoulders above either. It is very hard to get a really accurate target load (not action pistol load, but a bullseye-type target load) with plated or jacketed. It is a lot more fun in action sports to shoot jacketed or plated as accuracy is less important as the targets are larger than an X-ring.
Also, once you leave the light target loads, the jacketed bullets then come into their own and it takes a very good lead bullet to keep up (and the plated ones were never in the race). I can enjoy cast bullets in my .30-30 and .30-06, but they are not as accurate as almost any jacketed bullet for Sierra or Barnes.
Again, plated bullets have, in my guns, never been a top choice, but all I look for is accuracy and on-target performance.
I understand the "benefit" of very fast powders and very heavy bullets for the action sports, but I hate seeing those powders and bullets being recommended to a general shooter or beginner. There are a lot of KBs with those loads by the "experts" and they are truly specialized loads for a given "need."
I mean, Nitro1000, Scott 1000, and N310 in the 9x19 or .40S&W? NO, and NOT for beginners.
Thank you, I feel better now...on with you normal programming at this time.

 

[rfwobbly]

I'm confident in my understanding of the difference between 38 special brass and 357 brass and the appropriate load for each, so no confusion there. ;-)

James -
I could tell by your post you are an intelligent person, and I meant no offense. What I was trying to point out was, as a new reloader, it's always best to keep it simple and go straight by the book. Believe me, you'll have enough issues with press setup, die adjustment and powder measuring without starting on day 1 with concocting your own loads.

Where I tend to get stuck is, if I can only find a lighter or heavier bullet than a recipe calls for, or a plated bullet when the recipe specifies lead, how should I go about determining a proper and safe load for it? Is it just best just to state the specs and ask here? I don't have any local experts to consult that I know personally.

As a novice, you want to make "double darn sure" you got a recipe that matches the bullet construction, bullet weight and powder you are using. You can always go on-line to the powder maker's web site and look. Some reloading manuals, like the Lyman #49, simply give a larger number of bullet weights. In the end, you'll end up with an entire library to consult.

At the same time, no desire to be a bother at THR, either.

That can never happen.

My 627 is a heavy revolver, and 38 specials are a pleasure to shoot in it for me. My wife still has some complaint there.

My bad there. I thought I read S&W 637.

I'm hopeful that a lighter Trail Boss load in 357 brass will be both easier for her to shoot, and easier for me to clean.

Sounds like a good path, but you'll have to consult on-line sources since Trail Boss hasn't made it to the books yet.

My apologies for not being clear about jacketed versus lead bullets... it's a little foggy to me, to be honest, which way to go.

We won't be too hard on ya!

In this, I want to err on the sides of safety (this is quite new to me, and Trail Boss sounds pretty goof-proof), low-cost (for starters, nothing fancy needed here), and "easy clean-up." I figure that once I have confidence with this, I can begin to explore and consider different loads, bullets, or powders. I'm looking for that "where to start" sweet spot that lands me in known territory first.

Get you some Missouri Bullets, the Trail Boss, and go to the Hodgdon web site for loading info.

 

[Walkalong]

Sorry to have pulled your chain noylj.

 

[jamesmhebert]

What I was trying to point out was, as a new reloader, it's always best to keep it simple and go straight by the book. Believe me, you'll have enough issues with press setup, die adjustment and powder measuring without starting on day 1 with concocting your own loads.

+1 there!

And no offense taken, I was genuinely wondering if i had given any indication that I was pretty green and wanted to say "not totally" without causing any return-volley offense. I think I may have been a bit thin-skinned there, so please don't feel you should pull any punches in addressing an important point.

Fact is, I *am* green at this... a lot of research knowledge but no direct experience with reloading and its components. I also realize a lot of Internet material is well intended but may still suffer from inaccuracies due to any number of reasons. This thread has yielded not only information but also reinforced that "double darn sure" wisdom is the path to take.

Get you some Missouri Bullets, the Trail Boss, and go to the Hodgdon web site for loading info.

I consider these marching orders, sir, and will dutifully comply.

A LOT of helpful input and guidance here, thank you, THR. Some family health concerns of my wife's parents has arisen these past two days, so I may become radio silent for a bit as we work through them, but will return with (a) results to share, and (b) yet more questions! (already waiting: do I need to concern myself with crimping?)

James

 

[cfullgraf]

... yet more questions! (already waiting: do I need to concern myself with crimping?)

James

Yes you do need to crimp. With light loads, at a minimum, you will need to remove the belling of the case mouth. With heavier loads, you will need to roll crimp, with the 357 Mag in particular, to hold the bullets in place during recoil.

Crimping is done in the cannelure on jacketed bullets or a crimping groove on cast bullets. Plated bullets generally do not have a crimping groove but are soft enough that they can be crimped lightly into the side of the bullet. A taper crimp would work best with plated bullets because of the lack of a crimping groove.

Be cautious to not over crimp as you will end up with a bulge at the case mouth and the cartridge will not chamber. The bulge can be ironed out. I pull the decapping pin out of my sizer die and run the case mouth up into the die. I suppose the Lee FCD die would do the same.

Generally, revolver rounds are roll crimped while auto pistol rounds are taper crimped. Auto pistol cartridges generally headspace on the case mouth. The taper crimp removes any belling of the case mouth and still leaves the case mouth exposed to headspace on.

Revolver rounds, particularly heavy rounds, need a good roll crimp to hold the bullets in place during recoil.

Hope this helps.

 

[rfwobbly]

And no offense taken, I was genuinely wondering if i had given any indication that I was pretty green and wanted to say "not totally" without causing any return-volley offense. I think I may have been a bit thin-skinned there, so please don't feel you should pull any punches in addressing an important point.

James -
New, "day 1" member, or at it for 50 years, it makes no never mind. You're a full-fledged member of the brotherhood now. Welcome.

In my particular line of work, we simply say "KISS". That is, "keep it simple, stupid". Like everything else in life, reloading can get complicated on its own. So if you start simple with a published recipe, then the most it can turn into is "confusing", and you'll completely avoid "utter frustration", "suicidal depression", and "feeling the need for a PHd".

Missouri Bullets just makes lead bullets, so all their offerings will have a nice cast-in groove to place the roll crimp into. It will be very straight forward. You'd have to work harder to fall off a bar stool.

The confusing part will be selecting which bullets to get. Simplify that decision by getting 500 of each and start having some fun.

All the best.