3 rounds in chest, treated and released

[Father Knows Best]

Think about a Silhouette target. Most silhouettes have their X ring(Hi score) located below the sternum(where your ribs come together breatsbone) there is not a lot of vital stuff located below the sternum. The major vitals are located behind the sternum. You could get hit in the x area and not die because no vital organs are there. The Xring area on most silhouette's has you shooting at the stomach which is a survivable wound.

I train with Tom Givens at Rangemaster. He teaches you to aim for "the lethal triangle", which is defined by the nipples and adam's apple. That region contains the heart, lungs and reasonably accessible elements of the central nervous system. As you point out, shots to the torso below a line drawn between the nipples typically are not fight stoppers, because the rarely hit anything critical.

I recall reading an article by a famous writer whom I won't name who suggested that shots to the pelvis are better fight stoppers than shots to the torso, at least with high velocity rounds like .357, because they tend to shatter a critical structural element (the pelvis) causing the target to fall down. I haven't seen enough evidence of that theory to cause me to change my practice habits, though.

 

[dfaugh]

We had case here years ago, where a guy was on trial for beating someone to death with a shovel....after the guy who died had put 8 .25 rounds into his chest.

 

[Father Knows Best]

He pushed the guy off with one hand while drawing his Glock .40 with the other. He put four rounds of .40 JHP into the guy, striking him once in the abdomen, twice in the chest and once in the shoulder. He lived, and sued my brother for violating his civil rights.

Slide lock.

I know what you're saying, but I have to give my brother credit for doing exactly the right thing. He stopped at four shots because the fourth shot (the one that impacted the BG's shoulder) dropped him. My brother drew and started firing as he was bringing the gun up, resulting in the line of four shots ascending up the BG's torso from abdomen to shoulder. My brother was backing up at the time, bleeding from a stab wound to his right thigh, and with his shirt and vest torn from the BG's attempt to run the knife into his heart (his strike plate saved him). Still, he had the presence of mind to stop pressing the trigger when the threat ended. Four shots, four hits.

The department backed him up all the way, and the civil suit against him was dismissed. Still, it goes to show that even when you do everything exactly right, and even when you have a uniform and a badge, you can still expect to get sued.

 

[chopinbloc]

outstanding! please thank your brother for doing a difficult and often thankless job and congratulate him on his fighting spirit, skill and presence of mind. that is an impressive story.

 

[YellowLab]

Police get a gun, OC and a bataan.. now even tazers.

Go talk to a Corrections Officer... we get to duke it out like in the olden days. *MAYBE*, IF WE ARE LUCKY we have a radio for a weapon... but they are plastic and the mic cord is a choke hazard if the BG gets it (most COs will wear the mic on their shoulder... putting it right next to thier neck ).

Sorry to go off topic, but jail is more dangerous that the streets.

 

[sam59]

More Dangerous.

Lab, I have worked both (CO & PD) and If your saying the chance of death is higher as a CO I think thats totally inaccurate from a personal experience stand point and a statistical standpoint.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

+1. My brother is an LEO in Georgia. A couple of years ago, a guy he was taking into custody (on multiple felony warrants including armed robbery) produced a knife and ran it into my brother's thigh. He pushed the guy off with one hand while drawing his Glock .40 with the other. He put four rounds of .40 JHP into the guy, striking him once in the abdomen, twice in the chest and once in the shoulder. He lived, and sued my brother for violating his civil rights.

In future, tell your brother to fire at least five rounds.

 

[f4t9r]

Maybe they were those "Airsoft" 9mm's ?????

Maybe !!!! I would not want 3 shots to the chest and think I would survive

 

[MK11]

And a bad guy in CA recently soaked up 27 hits of 10mm before going down, according to Jeff Cooper.

 

[The Viking]

And a bad guy in CA recently soaked up 27 hits of 10mm before going down, according to Jeff Cooper.

And I thought that 10mm was useful for taking on grizzlys on PCP and stuff like that

 

[Sinsaba]

And a bad guy in CA recently soaked up 27 hits of 10mm before going down, according to Jeff Cooper.

If 26 of them were in the arms then I'm not at all amazed.

27!!! Really!!!

 

[MadMercS55]

Local story going back 5yrs now, was of a domestic turned shooting in a nearby "less-than desirable" apartment complex. Husband came home drunked up and started beating his wife. She acquired his 9mm pistol from the bedroom and popped him once right COM and the gun jammed (Jennings 9mm). This guy leaves and walks about 1.5 miles to the local hospital and signs himself in, he was also treated and released, ammo was 115grn FMJ of unknown make.

 

[Richard.Howe]

What this thread really says is not much vis-a-vis the handgun caliber wars. I am personally a 45 ACP devotee, but to use this story as a platform from which to pontificate on the superiority of my favorite slow-n-heavy? Hardly.

What this sad story should remind us of: pistols are back-up weapons for a reason. Remember to keep your HD shottie/AR stoked and ready. The margin for inefficacy in either of these is low!

 

[mec]

civil war medicine- .58 Minie Ball

Hip and upper thigh woulds were 80% fatal regardless of treatment but there was a better survival rate for chest wounds. I saw one picture of a soldier with a large bullet scar center torso and a couple of inches below the xyphoid process.

Hard to say what a bullet wound is going to do.

 

[armoredman]

Having worked 8.5 years in armored trucks, and over 4 in prison, I have to say most days I feel safer in here than on a truck!
COs have constant watch stress, knowingly being surrounded and outnumbered by convicted violent felons, unarmed. Most PD don't interact thier entire shift with the scum, and while they are almost always outnumbered as well, they are armed and armored. We are not. Our chances of serious injury or death are less, due to the relative lack of serious weapons available, even though I have seen some doozies!
But, in a "disturbance", we are very likely to be taken hostage, raped by AIDS and HepC infected scum, (male and female), and tortured to death.
Also, nobody remembers we are even there, as when we do our job, nobody can see it.

Back on topic - I still carry a 9mm, as I can put them right where I want them, and with good quality ammo, the percentages are almost identical to other top calibers.
Of course, if I had to shoot someone, I'd prefer to use a shotgun or rifle!

 

[Kodiaz]

Well once again we have to go back to the beginning.

Shot placement shot placement shot placement.

Father knows best you are correct. A shot to the pelvis with a sufficiently powerful caliber will shatter the pelvic bone and drop the guy like a sack of bricks.


If you are shooting a silhouette and don't know what organ you are hitting with your bullets you may not have good shot placement.

I've been thinking about why target made for defensive use(silhouette) would have the high score area in a place where there are no vitals. This makes it so one you take your shots under stress you are going to put that high score ring on your target and hit no vitals.


An anatomy book and a regular circle target is better for shot placement than one of those stupid gut shot targets.

Hell I'd take a .44 to the belly instead of 9mm FMJ to my heart every time. Shot placement gentlemen get the biggest loudest handcannon you can shoot straight and make those groups get smaller every week. If you are going to use a silhouettes tape an index card to the REAL vital area so you can shoot at that.

 

[jtward01]

In nearly 15 years as a paramedic I saw lots of gun shot wounds and I'll tell you, there doesn't see to be any rhyme or reason as to the damage done. I've seen chest wounds that caused minor damage, and a .22lr in the shoulder that was fatal within a few seconds (the bullet deflected off the shoulder blade, crossed the chest puncturing the aorta and ended up just under the skin on the opposite shoulder).

As for stupid criminal tricks, we had a kid here in town who was robbing and raping the female clerks at various shops in some of the strip centers. He was finally caught when he did a robbery while wearing the Steak n Shake apron from his day job. He'd done the crime while on his lunch break.

 

[c_yeager]

I train with Tom Givens at Rangemaster. He teaches you to aim for "the lethal triangle", which is defined by the nipples and adam's apple. That region contains the heart, lungs and reasonably accessible elements of the central nervous system. As you point out, shots to the torso below a line drawn between the nipples typically are not fight stoppers, because the rarely hit anything critical.

My only problem with the triangle is that in a typical fighting/shooting stance, that triange is almost completely covered by the arms and shoulders. It still beats shooting for the abdomen (10-ring), but i think it all really depends on the nature of the situation.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Father knows best you are correct. A shot to the pelvis with a sufficiently powerful caliber will shatter the pelvic bone and drop the guy like a sack of bricks.

There is a lot of discussion on this theory that is skeptical of that result. If you read the accident reports the Navy puts out (2003 or 2004), there is an incident in there detailing a sailor who accidentally discharged a Browning M2 .50BMG into the pelvis of a fellow shipmate a few feet away. Not only did the guy not go down, he apparently managed to dish out quite a beating on the shooter before they could be separated.

You can also find this same incident discussed over at Tactical Forums in the archives. In any case, if .50BMG won't reliably produce a stop in a certain target area, I am skeptical that any pistol caliber will.

 

[tellner]

That's why all my carry gun calibers start with a "4".

Because you can't afford "5" and they don't make "6"?

 

[XDn00b101]

So this basically reiterates what everyone has said all a long. That handguns are just all around poor man stopers.

 

[Thain]

The only reason to carry a handgun is to fight your way to a rifle.
The only reason to carry a rifle is to fight your way to a machine-gun nest.
The only reason to use a machine-gun is to wait for close air support.

Most people shot with a 9mm, a .40, a .45 or even the humble .38spl aren't inclined to keep fighting. Yes, there are freaky stories about all calibres, but there is a reason they're considered "freaky stories."

Pistols are poor main weapons, this is why we give our troops rifles.

 

[Hardtarget]

It's all placement, isn't it? Last night(1/27) a friend of mine...Nash. Metro police...answered a call and had to shoot a man. One shot, BG made it to the hospital, died later. Metro carries .40 SW. With any gun it's placement. I learned this long ago hunting rabbit. Shot with a 12 ga but still alive because pellets didn't hit just right. People are big critters. Placement is the answer. But then...y'all know that.
Mark.