.30-06 vs .308

[FL-NC]

I prefer rifles with shorter barrels and 308 is more efficient in a barrel 20 inches or less.

I'm in agreement with you. The KAC SR25 and M110 sniper rifles used by the military comes standard with a 20" barrel. They are also issued to specialized units and within the LE community in a 16" version. 16" Larue 308 gas guns have won more than a few long range matches- including the USASOC sniper match at Ft Bragg. Based on my experiences with some of these rifles, I have no issue using my 18" Ruger American predator 308 (18" barrel) for my hunting needs.

 

[Llama Bob]

I know that when push comes to shove the 30-06 can have a little advantage over the 308,but it's not often a needed advantage..I remember as a fairly young kid my Dad bringing home a 308 mentioning it was about like a 30-06..I said something about how small the shells were,and he had me put one up to my ear,and shake it,and then do the same with a 30-06 shell..I don't know why the 30-06 has so much unused case capacity..I think it may have been to keep pressure down to a safer pressure for the time it was developed.

The powders were pretty limited initially. IMR 4895 (used to load WWII .30-06) for example didn't fill the case very well.

 

[lysanderxiii]

From a practical perspective there's essentially no difference between the two calibers. What one will do, the other will do. The rifles are likewise very similar - typically a few ounces different in weight. Short actions are usually a hair more accurate, but it's a tiny difference. So for hunting it really doesn't matter. Flip a coin. These are calibers that were designed to be the same, and the design succeeded.

.308 does have less expensive ammo and more military and match loads available. That will sway a lot of people less interested in hunting.

Until you get to heavier bullets.

.30-06 with 180 grain bullets = 2700 fps
.30-06 with 200 grain bullets = 2650 fps
.30-06 with 220 grain bullets = 2450 fps

.308 Win with 180 grain bullets = 2620 fps
.308 Win with 200 grain bullets = 2550 fps
.308 Win with 220 grain bullets = not commercially available

 

[lysanderxiii]

Both will shoot all 30 caliber bullet weights; 90 to 250 grains; with rifling twist appropriate, naturally.

Velocity difference with SAAMI spec barrels and pressures is about 100 fps different; higher with the '06.

Accuracy is about 25% better with the 308 with equal quality barrels and ammo.

Not too many places give reloading data, or provide factory ammunition for .308 in weights above 200 grains.

 

[Llama Bob]

Until you get to heavier bullets.

.30-06 with 180 grain bullets = 2700 fps
.30-06 with 200 grain bullets = 2650 fps
.30-06 with 220 grain bullets = 2450 fps

.308 Win with 180 grain bullets = 2620 fps
.308 Win with 200 grain bullets = 2550 fps
.308 Win with 220 grain bullets = not commercially available

If you're talking commercial ammo, I agree. But max load for a 220gr round nose in .308 is 2400 ft/s or so out of a 24" barrel with at least 5 powders, probably more. So .308s do heavy just fine.

 

[cdb1]

I prefer rifles with shorter barrels and 308 is more effecient in a barrel 20 inches or less.

I believe that to be true.

 

[cdb1]

I stated before that I prefer the 30-06. I don't care for the .308, like 30-06 and truly cannot give an answer as to why. I also believe a .270, .308 and 30-06 are interchangeable until you get to really heavy for caliber bullets.

 

[Deaf Smith]

There's a bit of a disscusion on this in the 45-70 thread so I thought some of the talk could go here.
Me firmly in the 06 camp. Well I am prejudiced in the matter because I've shot all Alaska game available to a white hunter but musk ox with a 06. With excellent results. My only concern was I was always able to retrieve the bullet (180 Nosier partition) in the off hide of moose past 100 yards. It seemed to me it it was getting marginal at long range, so I switched to .300 Weatherby.
But on topic why would anyone buy the lesser performing .308 over a 30-06?

Cause for most purposes and ranges the .308 does fine. See most people don't shoot past 300 yards anyway. And most people find a 180 gr just about all that is needed unless you are shooting really big critters. Thus the .308 is as good as any.

Now if I did live in Alaska, sure the .30-06 with 200 to 220 gr ammo would be a good idea when needed. But that's Alaska, not most other states.

Deaf

 

[Dr T]

For me, this is all quite simple. My '06's, both single shots, tend to shoot heavy bullets better than lighter ones. My 308's (two bolt guns and a Winchester 88) tend to shoot lighter bullets better than heavier ones. It is a nice coincidence that the ballistics work out. I don't lose any sleep over paper comparisons anymore.

 

[ExAgoradzo]

I won my first .308 and inherited my 2nd.
My .30-06 is a M70. LOVE LOVE LOVE this gun. It will be the very last one to leave my hands for several reasons.

Having said that: down in my country my Ruger GSR is my go to gun if I'm taking someone along (I get to keep the M70). Easier to handle, and for all purposes around me, enough gun.

IDK about getting slapped down: I load 180 gr in the -06 and 168 gr in the 08. But I know if I need bigger I'd go with my 06 (or .338 WM or now....375 H&H). While I won't be undergunned here with the 08, I just love the knowledge that (with modern bullets and powder) I have a slight edge over the 08 and I don't mind the extra recoil/weight/length. It seems to me, if you are going to reload and you want a gun to be your (mostly) forever gun, go with a very nice 06 and call it a day.

YMMV
Greg

 

[stiab]

But on topic why would anyone buy the lesser performing .308 over a 30-06?

In my case it's because I accumulate vintage deer rifles, and some really good ones are not chambered in the .30-06. Winchester 88 and Savage 99 are examples.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

In my case it's because I accumulate vintage deer rifles, and some really good ones are not chambered in the .30-06. Winchester 88 and Savage 99 are examples.

Well I can understand that. I examined a pre war Savage 99 the other day that was gorgeous. Beautiful wood, flawless checkering, factory tang sight. It appeared unfired. In fact the color case hardening on the lever was near new appearing. I just fell in love with the gun but really have no use for the 30-30 it was chambered in.

 

[LoonWulf]

Well I can understand that. I examined a pre war Savage 99 the other day that was gorgeous. Beautiful wood, flawless checkering, factory tang sight. It appeared unfired. In fact the color case hardening on the lever was near new appearing. I just fell in love with the gun but really have no use for the 30-30 it was chambered in.

Id trade a nice 06 for that turtle-turtle.....wait, no i wouldnt...a . 308 tho......

 

[Andrew Leigh]

Now with our local powders, and maximising the upper end of the pressure allowable I can get;

.30-06 with 180 grain bullets = 2800 fps or 58 815psi will give 3 136ft.-lbs, @ 300yds 2 119ft.lbs

.308 Win with 180 grain bullets = 2560 fps 61 603si will give 2 618ft.-lbs and at 300yds 1 744ft.-lbs

So for me that is a 21.5% difference in impact energy at 300yds, not insignificant

 

[Bart B.]

The powders were pretty limited initially.

IMR4064 was available (since about 1935) and was proved to shoot the original 172-gr. and 150-gr. .30-06 bullets more accurate than IMR4895 in test barrels. But powder charges had to be hand weighed to less than a 3/10th grain spread and it didn't meter that precise in production machines. High speed powder metering chambers did more consistent charge weights with IMR4895 which was much cheaper and faster to meet velocity and pressure specs.

 

[Bart B.]

Lol, ok Bart, I can see you are trying to cast doubt on the truthfulness of my reported velocities, but I'm not sure what you're driving at with the bit about the velocities being skewed towards the faster system.

I believe the velocity you got with both were valid. I'm not questioning them. I'm challenging the details of how they were obtained.

Here's my reasoning. When the only difference between two systems (rifle and ammo) shooting a given bullet in a 308 Win and .30-06 is their case shape and dimension plus charge weight to get a spec'd pressure level, the difference has shown to be 90 to 100 fps overall. When all the many variables in each system start having great spreads, that skews the velocity spread numbers between the cartridges' bullets. Some are in the cartridge's components, others in the barrel and one is the firing pin properties

I've seen a 200 fps spread for a given 308 or 30-06 cartridge across different rifles. One 308 Win load had 150 faster velocity in one 22" barrel than it did in another 22" one. And I've seen several people chronographing the same rifle and ammo get over 70 fps difference in average velocity.

 

[Sunray]

"....30-06 vs .308..." Difference is a half inch of case length and 100 FPS with like bullets. And whether you want a long action or a short. Ballistically, they're identical. That being the whole purpose of there being such a thing as a .308.
The .308 is inherently more accurate though. Has something to do with the bullet diameter to case length/capacity ratio. Something about short and 'fat' cartridges being more accurate. There's scientific study on-line somewhere.
Otherwise, it's about the rifle.

 

[RPRNY]

"....30-06 vs .308..." Difference is a half inch of case length and 100 FPS with like bullets. And whether you want a long action or a short. Ballistically, they're identical. That being the whole purpose of there being such a thing as a .308.
The .308 is inherently more accurate though. Has something to do with the bullet diameter to case length/capacity ratio. Something about short and 'fat' cartridges being more accurate. There's scientific study on-line somewhere.
Otherwise, it's about the rifle.

Medical emergency! Kool Aid overdose.

You are a victim of fake ballistics and 308 propaganda. At 180 grs the 30-06 starts pulling away from the 308 Win. At 200 grs and above, the difference is significant. That is fact.
The 26" 1:10 twist 308 unicorn rifle suggesting the contrary is to be disregarded.

 

[Hanzo581]

Sweet, was just thinking how this site could use some more caliber debate threads.

 

[Slamfire]

I can do everything the 308 Winchester can do, in a 30-06, at lower pressures. That is an advantage because pressure is not your friend. If you can do the same thing at lower pressure, it will be easier on your brass, easier on your rifle, and you are less likely to have function issues. If you want boring reliability, go with lower pressures.

 

[2ndtimer]

I wonder about that. If I buy a model 70 in .308 is the action really shorter and lighter then a 30-06? Or is it just a standard action with the magazine blocked? I don't know.

It is definitely a short action in the currently manufactured Model 70, as well as Remington 700, Howa, Browning (I think) and Savage. I believe the Tikkas are all one action (long) with blocked magazine.

 

[Bart B.]

You are a victim of fake ballistics and 308 propaganda

Sunray is right.

Check the only realistic/valid comparison of bullet weights' velocities from both cartridges on page 19 and 31 in:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/Z299-4_ANSI-SAAMI_CFR.pdf

Then calculate the average difference for same bullet weights in each round.

Why is it the best? The only variables in the two shooting systems are case/chamber dimensions and powder charge weights to get specs' average max pressures. There's over two dozen variables between two rifles and loads 99.9% of the times these two cartridges are otherwise compared. Enough to cause huge or reversed differences.

 

[RPRNY]

Sunray is right.

Check the only realistic/valid comparison of bullet weights' velocities from both cartridges on page 19 and 31 in:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/Z299-4_ANSI-SAAMI_CFR.pdf

Then calculate the average difference for same bullet weights in each round.

Why is it the best? The only variables in the two shooting systems are case/chamber dimensions and powder charge weights to get specs' average max pressures. There's over two dozen variables between two rifles and loads 99.9% of the times these two cartridges are otherwise compared. Enough to cause huge or reversed differences.

We've already covered your red herring "barrel variances". A classic tactic by those stymied by contrary facts is to deflect. It doesn't work when the other side sticks to the facts. And the fact remains that in real life with real rifles, from 180 grains upward, the 100+ Fps advantage of the 30-06 begins to widen and become significant. None of your attempts to cast doubt with theoretical "variances" will change that fact.

The 308 fanboy inferiority complex is inexplicable. In the bullet weights that both cartridges are most frequently shot with, the 100 Fps or so "advantage" of the 30-06 is pretty much immaterial. At 180 and above, it becomes significant. For paper, that doesn't matter much. For most hunting purposes, there may be something to be said for the lighter, shorter barreled 308 examples. If moose and big bears are on the menu, the 30-06 would be the wiser choice. Accept reality and move on.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I'm not crazy about either nowadays. I grew up hunting with an ought six, my dad's left hand Remington 700 BDL. Beautiful gun. When I was young I was a scrawny runt but neither the .308 nor the .30-06 were unmanageable, especially from field positions while hunting. It's pretty hard to escape the fact that the .30-06 is simply more powerful, albeit not by a lot. Not a lot to recommend one over the other. I've heard for at least 40 years that short actions were inherently more accurate although in actual hunting rifles I've always found more variation from rifle to individual rifle than in short vs long across the board. For the area where I grew up and learned to hunt (the plains of west river South Dakota) either was sufficient, both were essentially overkill for deer.

Now I don't hunt, just shoot. I don't care much for either of those rounds now. If I'm just going to murder paper then I can get better ballistics, less recoil and a more pleasant to shoot rifle with a smaller caliber round. If this doesn't apply to your situation then YMMV.

 

[Bart B.]

Of course, anyone can set their own objectives, conditions and standards for comparing cartridges. Rubber rulers are popular measuring anything to suit one's own preferences.