30-06 vs 338-06

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I love the .338-06, it's saved my bacon a time or two...BUT, in the three I've owned, NONE of them would push the same weight bullets as a .338 mag. anywhere near what the mag would push them UNLESS I pushed the pressures waaaay up! That also includes two .338-06 imp's I've reloaded for...

I see folks bragging on the .336-06 velocities, but I'd be willing to bet the pressures were waay up there to get them. You will not get near mag. velocities as reasonable pressures with one and you don't need to! They are a great killing machine without them, as long as you keep your distances within reason and use proper bullets, for the animals you are shooting.

In this case, there's no substitute for case capacity....the mag wins.

DM
 
I'll second that DM... There's no replacement for displacement!

I've loaded pretty hot loads in my 338-06, have been tempted to go to one of JD's Improved versions, but I've never gotten what I'd call close to the 338wm. You're talking a ~70grn H2O case vs. a ~90grn H2O case - unless the 338-06 is WAY loaded higher pressure than the WM, the two shall never meet. Loaded to similar pressures on a level playing field, the bigger case wins out. Might need 2-4" more barrel to get down to the same muzzle flash, but the two aren't twins.
 
Guys, please let's not drift into the Win Mag zone. I'm not asking about that cartridge and did not ask about a better solution than the 338-06.

Thanks for all the information, I got what I need and I'm not interested in a magnum rifle.
 
As stated, greater bullet base area. My .338-06 shot, as far as I can remember, 160's real fast. Does Barnes still or did they make a 160 solid copper bullet? I used lots of Varget or Re15. Apparently, Barnes still does make a 160, this should be a real flat shooter up to 300 or so. Blue tip thingy and flat base, proportional to a 125 or so .30
 
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I have wanted a 338-06 for 30 years but have no use for it now. I will never hunt anything larger than a whitetail now that I am over the hill. Never could fathom why the 35 Whelen was more popular when you had a better BC with the 338 cal bullets. A 225 gr should be the best of the lot, but this is just speculation.

.338-06 - 225 gr. Nosler Accubond (SD 0.281/ BC 0.550) at 2700 fps at the muzzle from a 24" Bbl, w/ handloads.

If only they made .338-06 Bbl's for my 10.5 lb. M1 Garand.




GR
 
I'm confused here but that's not rare.

Using Hodgdon data.
The 30-06 shooting a 200gr jacketed bullet over 53.7gr H4350 will achieve 2580 fps @48,400 CUP.
They only supply data for up to 220gr bullets.

The 338-06 shooting a 200gr jacketed bullet over 62.0gr H4350 will achieve 2729 fps @54,300 PSI.
They supply data for up to 250gr bullets.

They use the same case for goodness sake so why can we push the 338" bullet so much faster? Why can't we use the same charge in the 30-06? I'm sure it has something to do with the wider bullet but I know very little about why. I'm also at a loss as to why they supply data for bullets 30gr heavier than those in the 30-06. The 338-06 will push a 250gr bullet as fast as a 30-06 will push a 200gr bullet with the same powder. Again, it's the same darn case!!!

Can anyone clear this up for me?
It's simple. Imagine we have two identical rifles, but one has a .308 bore and the other a .338 bore. If we fill the bores with water we will find the .338 bore holds a lot more water -- that is it has a greater volume.

Now when we fire the rifles (with identical powder charges) the powder burns and produces high pressure gas. The gas EXPANDS and pushes the bullet down the bore.

When a gas expands, its pressure drops. And the gas in the .338 bore will expand MORE because of the greater volume. If we measure pressure with the bullets, say one inch down the bore, we will find LESS pressure in the .338 barrel.

But we don't want LESS pressure -- we want the pressure as high as we can get it (within safety limits, of course.) So in the .338 bore we burn MORE powder -- look at the example you gave above -- 53.7gr H4350 in the .308 bore and 62.0gr H4350 in the .338 bore. That extra powder keeps the pressure up, and adds energy.

Of course in the example you gave, the .338 rifle is not just loaded to equal pressure, but to greater pressure, which accounts for some of the dramatic increase in velocity.
 
I'm confused here but that's not rare.

Using Hodgdon data.
The 30-06 shooting a 200gr jacketed bullet over 53.7gr H4350 will achieve 2580 fps @48,400 CUP.
They only supply data for up to 220gr bullets.

The 338-06 shooting a 200gr jacketed bullet over 62.0gr H4350 will achieve 2729 fps @54,300 PSI.
They supply data for up to 250gr bullets.

They use the same case for goodness sake so why can we push the 338" bullet so much faster? Why can't we use the same charge in the 30-06? I'm sure it has something to do with the wider bullet but I know very little about why. I'm also at a loss as to why they supply data for bullets 30gr heavier than those in the 30-06. The 338-06 will push a 250gr bullet as fast as a 30-06 will push a 200gr bullet with the same powder. Again, it's the same darn case!!!

Can anyone clear this up for me?

As several people have touched on, the first issue is what pressure you want to run at. People say pressures in CUP can't be converted to PSI, but that's not really true. It can be converted, there's just a huge amount of noise in CUP measurements. If you take them again on another copper crusher, the value you get can vary by several KCUP. So the real answer is we don't know very much about the pressure of the first load. So we're working with some ancient data in the .30-06 that probably isn't very accurate.

Second, bore diameter matters. If you remember your physics, acceleration = force/mass, and in this case force is pressure * base area. So the larger base bullet of the same weight will accelerate faster. This has two counter-acting effects. The bullet accelerates faster, but because it goes faster the pressure falls off faster since the reaction vessel is enlarged as the bullet moves down the bore. These relationships are tricky math-wise, and are the reason we have Quick Load to do the math for us. But in general the bigger the bore is and/or the lighter the bullet is, the faster a powder we'd want. So the optimum powder for the .338-06 will be faster than for the .30-06.

If we run in QL with a target pressure of a very safe 55 KPSI (65 KPSI would be safe in modern guns chambered in high pressure cartridges, but that's an argument for another day) we see that H4350 in the .30-06 gives us 54.0g charge and 2574 ft/s out of a 24" barrel. So it's very close to the Hodgdon data, and I think we can replace that 48,400 CUP mystery number with 55 KPSI and call it good. The case is 99.4% full.

QL in the .338-06 (55KPSI target) gives 6.18gr and 2722 ft/s. So again it matches the data very closely (QL really is incredible). The loading ratio this time is 109.2%, so some compression. In terms of getting velocity, H4350 is a much better fit - it's too fast for the .30-06, but better for the .338-06. The .30-06 is really going to want something like IMR 7828 SSC (if you don't care about temp stability too much) or RL-16 or H4831SC if you do. You could pick up almost 100 ft/s at the exact same pressure just by switching to RL-16.

If it's my .30-06 shooting 200 grainers, and I knew it was 100% good to go and chambered in higher pressure rounds like the 270 with no mechanical changes, I'd probably target pressures in the 62KPSI range and use RL-16 and expect to get about 2740 ft/s at max charge and hopefully over 2700 ft/s with an accuracy load depending on where the top node was.
 
This thread of mine is almost 2 years old and I already got the information I needed.

Thank you all for posting but there is no reason to bring back a zombie thread.
 
If I were in the market for a .338-06, I'd go with the C. Norman Brown chamber. I have a .35 Brown-Whelen with the case blown out almost straight, the shoulder made quite sharp, and moved well forward. It increases case capacity about 11%.
 
If I were in the market for a .338-06, I'd go with the C. Norman Brown chamber. I have a .35 Brown-Whelen with the case blown out almost straight, the shoulder made quite sharp, and moved well forward. It increases case capacity about 11%.

Kinda like what the .338-06 A-Square can do out of a 24" Bbl.

Pretty efficient.

225 gr. at 2700 fps is smokin'.

And the Magnums always exist to fill the need for... "moe-power".




GR
 
The .338-06 - may yet see it's hay-day.

Only if the US continent suddenly were flooded with moose and brown bear, and the American gun buying public forgets they don’t have to tolerate excessive recoil just to kill whitetail deer.

But really - folks (around here especially) act as if the fact a cartridge doesn’t overshadow the .308win in popularity, it means it’s not popular. There are THOUSANDS of rounds out there, only a handful will ever be sold at Walmart for Billy Bob Gottarifle. The .338-06 is a remarkably popular conversion for 30-06 rifles, has been, and will remain to be. Converting/rebarreling rifles isn’t, hasn’t ever been, and won’t ever be a hugely popular trend, but there’s always a steady population of rebuilders out there.
 
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