Necking up/down -- 338-06

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ArtP

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About a year ago I bought a 338-06 rifle from a buddy that came with a small amount of factory ammo. I knew going in that I would have to fork over the dough for factory cases or make my own.

I've been using the brass I saved from the expensive factory ammo as well as picked up 20, 30-06 cases off the range to form 338-06 brass with a Lee FL sizer, using more lube than.... well, never mind.

The 30-06 brass I've necked up to 338 seems to work fine, except it measures .010 shorter than the "trim to" book length, which I'm not too concerned about. I was about to order more virgin 30-06 brass for necking up until I noticed Remington sells 35 Whelen brass for considerably less than "real" 338-06 brass yet more than 30-06 brass. And I'm not sure Remington isn't necking up their own 30-06 brass to form 35 Whelen.

Which way would you go and why?

BTW - I've never necked "down" and if there is something to look out for, feel free to let me know.

Merry Christmas to all my reloading buddies and their families!!
 
If it were me I would neck-up virgin 30-06 brass to form what I need for the 338-06. You are less likely to damage the neck since they were annealed at the factory for forming and not worked at all, even by the first firing.

Are 338-06 brass that expensive you can't buy them?
 
338-06 brass is about $3 a pop, if not more.

My question is not about economy, it's more about how the brass is formed. Necking up or down, thickens or thins the brass. Which way am I better off going?

Appearances suggests necking down, but appearances aren't always what they seem.

I highly, highly suspect that the factory simply necks their common brass to form 338-06.

Which is better, necking up or down? Or am I just way off?
 
ArchAngelCD said:
since they were annealed at the factory
Click to expand...

I could be wrong, but I don't think every manufacturer anneals. I have some Lapua brass which has been annealed, based on coloring, but I don't find the coloring on any other brass to indicate it has been annealed at the factory.

I'd love to be proven wrong though.
 
ArtP said:
338-06 brass is about $3 a pop, if not more.

My question is not about economy, it's more about how the brass is formed. Necking up or down, thickens or thins the brass. Which way am I better off going?

Appearances suggests necking down, but appearances aren't always what they seem.

I highly, highly suspect that the factory simply necks their common brass to form 338-06.

Which is better, necking up or down? Or am I just way off?
Click to expand...
I did answer your question before I asked my own. I would neck-up like I said in my first post.

I never suggested it was about economy, I was only curious as to how much 338-06 brass cost. that you were going to make your own.
 
ArtP said:
I could be wrong, but I don't think every manufacturer anneals. I have some Lapua brass which has been annealed, based on coloring, but I don't find the coloring on any other brass to indicate it has been annealed at the factory.

I'd love to be proven wrong though.
Click to expand...
All factory brass is annealed when it's formed or it would split. Most American manufacturers will polish the brass after forming so you never see the discoloring. You will see it on military ammo but not American commercial ammo.
 
MY Dad has been a 338-06 fiend for years. Brass is easily made by fire-forming 30-06 brass with 8 or so grs. of some shotgun powder such as Unique. After charging the case, fill it the rest of the way with Cream of Wheat, plug the mouth of the case with something like candle wax, toilet paper, whatever, then fire it in your rifle. Thst's it!

35W
 
Sorry, Arch Angel,

You did indeed answer all the questions in your initial post. And thanks for responding!

But I would like to know why you choose to neck up rather than neck down? the annealing you mention should allow the brass to be flexible whether necked up or down.

I'm certainly no expert, believe me, but I'm curious why the annealing coloring remains on my Lapua brass after several firings and tumbling, yet none of my other brass has ever shown signs of annealing.

My understanding is that annealing is only necessary after a certain amount of "work" has been performed on brass. Therefore, cheaper brass may be formed without ever being annealed, or need to, leaving any need to anneal up to the reloader.
 
I can't accurately explain how the factory makes brass cases but I did see it on TV. There is no way to form the brass cases without annealing. Then they tumble the brass in some sort of ceramic media that makes it all shinny again.

As for necking up, I feel you are more likely to have a good outcome necking up than down because when you downsize it's possible to collapse the neck. I night be wrong but it seems like necking up would be better IMO.
 
Disclaimer:
I only form 277 from '06, and vice versa. Not 338.
I assume the issues are the same for your 30/338/35 question.


There is a dreaded 'doughnut' phenomenon,
said to occur when necking up but not when necking down.

I've never had that problem either way, but others warn of it.

Maybe the Search function will help find more info on that doughnut.
Some spell it donut. Try searching both spellings.
 
Years ago a friend had a 338-06 made and asked me about making cases. I suggested using 35 Whelan and necking down to 338'06 and here's why. Ley's say you're hunting with someone who has either a 30'06 or 35 Whelan,with the "35 Whelan" head stamp on your cases the guy with the '06 won't try to load your ammo in his rifle as it wouldn't fit and the fellow with the 35 Whelan were to use it in his rifle it would fire and do no harm. Yeah I know but I always figure there that one in a millon chance that it could happen and why tempt fate or your buddy's life. This for me comes under the addage"No matter how idiot proof they make something,someone will comes along and builds a better idiot."
 
You know, that's the very same thought I had. The Whelen head stamp would distinguish my 338-06 loads from perhaps the most popular caliber ever.

Do you have an opinion about the ease of necking down, vs. up? I've yet to neck anything down, but didn't find it all that difficult to go up.
 
I do it all the time, 30/06 to 338/06 and 30/06 to 35 Whelen, if the 30/06 head stamp makes someone dizzy use military cases, LC + the year, military multiple year head stamps give the reloader more different head stamps that he/she will ever need. I purchased new pull down NM 30/06 cases from Houston, TX and Ohio at .08 cents each, nothing like working with a case that behaves as design when forming, not a problem but I measure before and after, when necking up 30/06 to 35 Whelen the case will shorten as much as .035 thousands.

When necking up and off setting the effect of the chamber has on the case when fired, I use 280 Remington cases, the extra .051 thousands off sets the effect of necking up has on a case and the .041 thousands added between the case head and shoulder allows me to form the shoulder to off set head space.

Forming dies, I have forming dies, my favorite is the 308 W.

F. Guffey
 
Guf,

You certainly know your trade. However, I have a hard time following your words -- not just in this post, but wherever you post.

It's almost as if you believe when you write, your audience somehow knows your thoughts. I can't read minds and usually, that includes your mind that I cannot read.

I Have a very hard time following what you write. But thanks for posting.
 
My concern with necking down would be the thickening of the neck. You might end up with a neck thick enough that it can't expand in the chamber to release the bullet and creates a high pressure load. That would have to be remedied with neck turning or reaming. That's an extra step compared to necking up either via mechanical or fireforming means.

And if your friend managed to get your .338/06 loads confused with his .30-06 loads and managed to get one chambered in his .30-06...well, I'd reconsider who I hung out with when guns were involved.
 
Originally Posted by ArtP
338-06 brass is about $3 a pop, if not more.





Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtP
I could be wrong, but I don't think every manufacturer anneals. I have some Lapua brass which has been annealed, based on coloring, but I don't find the coloring on any other brass to indicate it has been annealed at the factory.

I'd love to be proven wrong though.

All...

#16
ArtP
Member


Join Date: May 6, 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 613 Guf,

You certainly know your trade. However, I have a hard time following your words -- not just in this post, but wherever you post.

It's almost as if you believe when you write, your audience somehow knows your thoughts. I can't read minds and usually, that includes your mind that I cannot read.

I Have a very hard time following what you write. But thanks for posting.




Purchase a press, die and shell holder, a few cases, wha-la, instant reloader.

I have been told I am not allowed to type slower, you ask a question, I answered...and....I noticed a couple of post that should have jumped out at you if you were the reading comprehension person you have presented yourself to be. In the process of making/manufacturing brass the case requires annealing as many as 5 times, with one exception, Frankfort arsenal skipped the usual process and decided it was not necessary. FA NATIONAL MATCH 58 was recalled?

I am not a big fan of name dropping, I realize there is immediate neighborhood acceptance when mentioning ‘Lapua’ as to annealing it is not a matter of proving you wrong, it is a matter of me wondering why/how you got be be the astute reader without knowing working brass from beginning to end requires at least 5 anneals before finishing. I can not see how you can blame me for that, that leaves me to be the person that informs you there is a lot of information that is more than nice to know, my opinion the information missing from your reloading back ground is ‘A MUST KNOW’.

$3.00 a case for 338/06.......????????

http://www.z-hat.com/Cylinder.htm

Cylinder brass, 2.650 thousands long, straight wall, annealed, the perfect piece of brass for people like me, that would be someone that knows the trade (thank you), it is a ‘can not miss’ thing for those that know what they are doing and not for those on the Internet for a social event and take every opportunity to be anti social.

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd33806.jpg

The 338/06 is 2.494 long??? necking up 30/06 to 338 will shorten the neck (those that do not have a clue will say the neck thins), as you have indicated when you measure the case length you have found the case has shortened .010 below trim to length, that would be at least .020 thousands (and when I form 30/06 cases by necking up to 35 Whelen I find the case shortens as much as .035 thousands). Back to cylinder brass, cylinder brass from R-P is 2.650 long, to the reloader/case former I ask ‘How can you miss when the case starts out .156 too long to start with and how can a reloader that knows the trade size a case and have head space when finished if the shoulder on the parent case is ahead of the shoulder of the chamber shoulder .410 thousands. I know by now you will not understand when I say I form first then fire, I size a case to off set the effect the chamber will have on the case when fired, I am a fan of cutting down on all that case travel, others fire first to form, WHY?

Could be something to that trade thing, as to responding to a question, on the out side chance there are/is someone outside of the choir/members that want to know or are curious, I have asked ‘If you are my neighbor’ as in the old Dutch term NEAR-BY we could work on some of these issues.

F. Guffey
 
Helotaxi, forgive, I noticed your post about thicker/thinner, next time rather than take the work of people out side of the trade, try this, then try to apply the thicker thinner thing. Necking a case neck up shortens the neck, if it got thinner the case neck would have stayed the same length, if the neck is necked down the neck gets longer, if the neck gets longer when necked down did it also get thicker?

F. Guffey
 
As to the other part of case forming that is beyond the ‘out of the trade' group’. My favorite case is the 280 Remington, I am building a 338/280 Remington, WHY? If the 338/06 is good, the 338/280 Remington is better. Back to the 280 Remington case (again) the shoulder of the 280 Remington is forward of the 338/06 by .041 thousands, the in-trade case former/reloader can form the shoulder/body juncture at .005 ahead of minimum length or as WE? say in the trade .000 or go-gage length for a go-gage length chamber, and that eliminates all that case travel. Again, back to the 280 Remington case length, the 280 is .051 thousands longer than the 30/06, so when necking up and the case neck gets shorter I ask, if the reloader is measuring before and after, How can they miss? they have .051 thousands to play with,

Bump, again, bump sounds like an accident, and there is nothing accidental about sizing a case that fits the chamber. I can not move the shoulder forward, I can not move the shoulder back, out side of the trade anything is possible. And I know no one will understand that statement.

F. Guffey
 
All I can say, Guf, if I ever reach your level of handloading prowess, I hope I don't forget my patience and manners along the way if I'm to try to pass on what I have learned to others.
 
#16
ArtP
Member


Join Date: May 6, 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 614 Guf,

You certainly know your trade. However, I have a hard time following your words -- not just in this post, but wherever you post.

It's almost as if you believe when you write, your audience somehow knows your thoughts. I can't read minds and usually, that includes your mind that I cannot read.

I Have a very hard time following what you write. But thanks for posting.



ArtP, If I do not understand the question (or answer) I ask for clarification, now tell me, what part of the above post did I not understand, I thought by ignoring some of the information being provided I would avoid provoking someone.

“I hope I don't forget my patience and manners” You are setting at the keyboard and hooked up to the Internet.

F. Guffey
 
fguffey said:
Necking a case neck up shortens the neck, if it got thinner the case neck would have stayed the same length, if the neck is necked down the neck gets longer, if the neck gets longer when necked down did it also get thicker?
Click to expand...
You speak of these things as if they are mutually exclusive. You speak as if brass can only stretch in a single dimension.
 
Art, it looks as though FGuffey has provided you with the source of the brass you need to form your cases. They are 30-06 case but stamped 35Whelen and are longer as stated just for forming .I believe that is the answer to your question as to which way you should go about making your cases.That is the common way of doing it hence why they make those cases.
 
Striker Fired said:
Art, it looks as though FGuffey has provided you with the source of the brass you need to form your cases. They are 30-06 case but stamped 35Whelen and are longer as stated just for forming .I believe that is the answer to your question as to which way you should go about making your cases.That is the common way of doing it hence why they make those cases.
Click to expand...

I get that and I did investigate his link. That brass is $2 each and I'm not sure if I want to spend that extra money, or form from something that might end up slightly short. Ideally I'd like to have 100 pieces but 50 would suffice too. I could also buy Norma 338/06 brass for $3 each.

The way I see it, the only drawback to being .010 short, it won't provide as much contact area for the bullet, and since I'm not seating exceptionally long I have plenty of neck contact.

At this point, I'm inclined to buy some Winchester 30-06 brass and continue to neck up.
 
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