30-06 won’t group with heavy bullets

[Whizzbang]

Hello everyone,
so I’ve got a bit of a problem. I shoot a howa 1500 that’s throwing me for a loop. Before I started reloading I fed it mainly 150 gr core-lokts and it shot those very well. I began reloading and reloaded lots of 150 gr game King’s and it also shot those just fine. I’ve since moved to a state with large critters and I decided to start loading 180-200 gr bullets.
-I started with Barnes 200 gr lrx. it shot those ok but the higher the charge the accuracy just fell apart.
-Moving on to 180 gr game Kings pushing the limits barely makes a 1 inch group and not consistently .
-Dropped back to 165 game kings these shoot fairly well but again at lower velocity accuracy just falls off the faster they go.
-180 gr ttsx’s shoot fantastic but at a muzzle velocity of 2600 and a copper bullet it worry’s me there a bit slow for longer shots.
-I recently read a lot of people have success with 200 gr accubond and I hoped that would be the ticket. Bought a box and loaded them up. Shot horribly at lower velocity. The speed rose and the groups tightened up but I hit pressure signs I wasn’t comfortable with.
So I’m just looking for advice. Have you ever had a rifle that just wouldn’t shoot heavy bullets? If so did you just chalk it up to using it for light body game? Or did you find a way around it. Different powder, seating depth? A little lost here. Love the rifle but 150 gr isn’t going to cut it.

 

[brewer12345]

What kind of critter are you talking about?

 

[docbrown]

What length are you loading the heavier bullets to? Any pressure signs?

 

[1KPerDay]

What are you hunting that a 1 inch group with 180s isn't going to cut it? What are you hunting that won't fall to a 150 for that matter? Welcome to THR

 

[skeeterfogger]

I don't reload but have found the 06 generally shoots best with 150-168gn.
Velocity can be an issue.Velocity not as important as placement.
Maybe the twist rate not right to stabilize heavier projectiles. Or at the pressure you are getting.

 

[DocRock]

Wait. Are you saying that the problem is 1" groups with 180 Game Kings?

Because that's not a problem. That's something to be pleased about.

Further, before tossing the rifle, consider the possibility that the substantial increase in recoil of 180s and 200s "pushing the limits" may have a role in diminished accuracy. Best accuracy is rarely found at maximum charge weights. Further, while you have discussed bullets, you have not mentioned powders. Best powders at 150 grs are unlikely to be best powders at 180 - 200 grs.

It would be difficult to find a 30-06 rifle that didn't shoot Game Kings or Accubonds over @ 55-56 grs H4350, for example, rather well. And velocity is not the god it is made out to be. While your concerns about terminal velocity with copper solids are not without some basis, more traditional, well constructed 180 grs bullets at a 2600 fps muzzle velocity will work very well on elk,for example, out to 300 yards. And a 3" group at 300 yards would be something to brag about, not bemoan.

So more detail on powder and charge weights would help us to help you.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Try seating them longer if you have enough room in the mag.
What powder are you running? You may need to switch to a slower burning one.


Edit to add. If you seat then longer. Make sure they don't hit the lands also.

 

[Project355]

Barrel whip could be the answer.

A side note:
Long time ago, one of my buds got a Browning autoloader in '06, and I loaded up some 180's for him at just past a "starting load". We took it out and shot it at a hundred long paces. Damn thing grouped in one ragged hole when we shot prone out of the bed of his truck. He said go make me 200 more, I don't need any more ammo than that for the rest of my life!

Back to your issue, you'll find that barrel whip can and will effect group size and at some point you might enroll into the "little pressure at the end of the stock", or "full length bed", or "free float" school aptly named the college of "Knocking One's Head Against The Wall".

I'm no bedding expert, but I've shot rifles that were one of the three avenues of bedding, and they all shot fine - with the loads I shot. No doubt the owners fiddled and futz'd with the guns, the loads, to get things "just so". My experience tells me that a fully bedded action, and a barrel with a bit of upward pressure from the stock seems to do pretty well for hunting rifles, but you'll have to fart around to see just how much pressure, and if you're already getting damn near 1 MOA, you might well shoot out the barrel before being satisfied. At some point, any given rifle is only going to so much, and no more, no matter how much you beg it, or try to coerce it by threat of hacksaw at dawn.

Another thing, just in case you've missed it, when you're shootin' those test groups, are you simulating hunting situations? That is, do you clean and dry the bore before shooting a three shot test group? Do you hunt with a single "fouling shot" or a clean and dry bore? All that matters too.

The US Army determined that the maximum ordinate for a .30-06 was with a 173g boat tail, I seem to recall 11 degrees, but don't crucify me if I'm off on the angle. This is all explained in Hatcher's Notebook, and when reading, you'll conclude we fought two world wars with "the wrong ammo".

 

[Whizzbang]

Thanks for the replies! No a one inch group isn’t my complaint. 1 inch is great if it’s always one inch and pressure signs are good I’m good. But so far they are not. Most of my pressure signs have been found before i get to a 1 inch group. Lead bullets I’m good with 2700 Fps not looking for magnum velocities. Would like to get the 180 ttsx sped up a little though.
Powders used-
-200 gr lrx 42.5 IMR 4064
-180 gr ttsx 47.5 IMR 4064
-165 gr game king 55 IMR 4350 I’ve used rl17 also.
-180 game king sorry lost the notes on this one! Powder was rl17 plan on trying IMR 4350 since I have it.
-200 grain accubond rl17 found pressure at 52 ejector wipe,hard bolt lift.

all seated to book COAL. To start I did seat the game kings (180and 165) out farther. Fixed the 165’s still trying to fiddle with the 180’s
Critters the load is after are moose and grizzly.
Thanks again for the info.

 

[Whizzbang]

I also realize this is a lot of loads to be addressed in one thread. Not looking to scrap the rifle. Just curious if anyone has ever used 180s and beyond and found the rifle just wouldn’t shoot them.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have a Howa 1500 in 30-06 an .223.

The 30-06 will shoot sub 1/2MOA groups all day long.
The load, a Sierra 165 GameKing over 57.0gr IMR4350. I use a CCI LRP. I think the OAL is 3.320" but I for have my notes here to check.

 

[Whizzbang]

archAngel- Thanks. I’ll give it a shot I haven’t worked with the 165s much but so far they shoot well. Have you ever shot heavier bullets than the 165s?

 

[DocRock]

IMR 4064 is a great and versatile powder, but it's not its best with 180s and 200s. IMR 4350 will serve you well, and is likely to do its best in the 55 -55.5 grs area, with bullets seated just off contact with the lands, or as far out as the magazine will allow. Try such a load and see how things go.

 

[PWC]

What is your rifiling twist rate? May be ragged edge for heavier, longer bullets.

 

[ms6852]

I've hunted all my life with 30-06 only , and through decades of hunting with this round on two rifles I own a Savage 110C and a Tikka T3 Lite both factory rifles without upgrades and the Savage pre accutrigger both rifles shoot the 165 grainers sub moa at 200 yards, which is my zero, groups measure around .740. The 180's and higher never shot better than 1.4 to 1.7 at 200 yards. I have taken a couple of dozen elks with 165 grainers so I can honestly say that you do not need a heavier round, but than I really do not hunt anything a 30-06 won't kill.

My experience with this caliber has shown me that I attain my best accuracy on both rifles at moderate velocities of 2600 to just under 2800 fps.
You can get higher velocities which many shooters chase, but I've always loaded for accuracy. Because of the wide disparities in bullet weights with the 30-06 I would recommend that you continue to load your bullets with different powders until you are able to find the combination that works best on your rifle and checks the boxes you want. I won't offer you my data because may not work for you, and I load way below max loads. But I do use RL-17 and IMR 4064 for my rifles.

 

[Sneakshot92]

Thanks for the replies! No a one inch group isn’t my complaint. 1 inch is great if it’s always one inch and pressure signs are good I’m good. But so far they are not. Most of my pressure signs have been found before i get to a 1 inch group. Lead bullets I’m good with 2700 Fps not looking for magnum velocities. Would like to get the 180 ttsx sped up a little though.
Powders used-
-200 gr lrx 42.5 IMR 4064
-180 gr ttsx 47.5 IMR 4064
-165 gr game king 55 IMR 4350 I’ve used rl17 also.
-180 game king sorry lost the notes on this one! Powder was rl17 plan on trying IMR 4350 since I have it.
-200 grain accubond rl17 found pressure at 52 ejector wipe,hard bolt lift.

all seated to book COAL. To start I did seat the game kings (180and 165) out farther. Fixed the 165’s still trying to fiddle with the 180’s
Critters the load is after are moose and grizzly.
Thanks again for the info.

Ever try loading up some 165 or 180gr Partitions?? I had a rifle that wouldn't shoot well with almost everything I tried. Just for the halibut i loaded up some 165gr partitions and bingo. Went from 1.75" groups at 100 to .5". Sold that rifle to a guy that wanted somithing for texas wild hogs. Gave him a copy of my load data from all the stuff I tried so he knew what not to load.

*Edit
I forgot to mention that rifle was a Mossberg Patriot in 30-06 that I had given the Ackley treatment. It let me push bullets a bit faster before running into those pressure signs...
Just the rest of my $0.02

 

[earlthegoat2]

I had a 7600 30-06 that gave about 5” with 180 CLs.

165s shrunk it to 1.25”.

Might need faster twist rifling or stick with something lighter.

 

[jmr40]

I've never seen a 30-06 not twisted to shoot 180 gr bullets. I'm pretty sure Howa is the standard 1:10 virtually everyone else uses for 30-06. Even 1:12 which is common in 308 will shoot 180's just fine so I doubt this is a problem. You should be able to find a 180 gr or even a 200 gr load that will work, it just may take some more experimenting.

FWIW a near max book load of H4350 works great for me with every 175-180 gr bullet I've tried. I've used IMR4350 in the past with nearly identical performance. RL17 not so much. I hear it can be a good choice, but I just haven't hit the right combo yet using it.

If you just can't get that rifle to shoot 180's then use 150-168 gr bullets. The primary reason to go heavier is to get better penetration with old school standard bullets. A premium 150-168 can match or beat that. In fact a solid copper 150 will match or beat the penetration you'd get from a standard 180 gr bullet.

If your rifle shoots them 200's can be effective, but unless you're concerned about Alaskan coastal brown bear there is nothing else in North America where they are needed. A good quality 150-168 gr 30-06 load is sufficient for anything else in North America.

 

[DocRock]

Disregard any comments about rifling twist. Your rifle, unless the barrel has been replaced by a previous owner with a mental disorder, has a 1:10 twist rate suitable to stabilize bullets up to at least 220 grs.

There is no reason whatsoever that a decent rifle like the Howa will not shoot 180s to good hunting accuracy if it will shoot 150s and 160s to sub-MOA. Try some IMR4350 loads at below maximum charge, forget the copper solids.

 

[Whizzbang]

Ms6852-this is what I have found it just didn’t sit right with me that the 150’s are stellar performers and the heavy bullets don’t hold the same groups. Maybe I’m just expecting to much.

sneak- it’s on the list 165 partition or accubond will be the go to if I can’t get what I have on hand to shoot.

earl- that’s how it starts for me at lower powder charges. Groups tighten as the speed goes up but pressure is found before acceptable groups. For example the first three with the 200 gr accubond were barely on an 8x11 sheet of paper. One full grain of powder later there in 4 inch circle one more grain and more pressure than I would like and there all in a 2” group.

jmr40- it’s a 1:10 twist. I think I’m going to try imr4350 i started with rl17 because I’ve used it in other calibers with great success. I have not had it work with any bullet I have tried in my 30-06. Seems to always hit pressure early and groups just aren’t there. Coastal browns are possible The idea behind this project is to hunt North America. Browns to bison.

All development has been from a rest with a clean rifle and one fouling round. These loads are over a few years. So my process’s have evolved as I’ve moved along in my reloading career. Lately I’ve been trying to use rl17 because I use it in two other rifles and it’s great. I’m gonna try IMR 4350 if that doesn’t work I’ll just shoot a 165. I know I don’t “need” a 200 grain bullet but the ballistics on the close range shots as well as the longer shots is pretty hard to argue. Could be I’m just chasing a load the rifle doesn’t like. Thanks to everyone for the responses. I think I have a better idea in which direction to head.

 

[Telum Pisces]

Ok I'll ask a dumb question, have you tried factory rounds?

 

[FROGO207]

You could be chasing your tail with a bullet that the barrel does not like. Try other brands of heavy bullets or look at what factory loadings use for a bullet of that weight. If factory ammo shoots OK that bullet should work well with an appropriate propellant. I also try to find the lowest node and load for accuracy with that. It always seems the most stable.

 

[Blue68f100]

Are you letting your rifle barrel cool down between shoots? Pencil barrels heat up fast and walk all over the place. Allow the barrel to cool so you can comfortably hold your hand on the barrel before the next round. That and setup a forced air cooling pump to cool it down faster.

 

[Thomasss]

Your are still not giving us enough information. You never said how deep you are seating your bullets. I've been shooting .06 for over 35 years and have been using hand loads almost all that time. Telum has a good point. Buy some Remington 180 core lokts and see what your gun does. Be sure to clean it real good before shooting. Both 4350 and 4064 are great 06 powders. BUT stick with one until you are happy and stick with one bullet. Different bullets all have different ogives I would not recommend Game Kings for serious hunting. I've had them fragment a few times at high velocity. Your best bet is to load up some rounds and every 5 vary the seating depth out further. For 180s start at 3.240 and next group at 3.250 going up to 3.30. That will give you 7 groups. Set up 7 targets and designate one depth size for each target. But you are not going to shoot all one size at once. Rather shoot 1 shot of each different size in their respective target. So you end up with 1 depth size hole in each of the targets. Then repeat until you have at least five shots of the same size in each target.. By doing this you will eliminate shooter error, getting tired, too hot a barrel, flinching etc. When all done compare the targets and see which you like the best. Let us know the results.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I’ve hunted and shot .30/06’s for 47yrs. Currently have 5.
4064 Is usually as good a powder as there is for the ‘06. 4895’s Varget, and RL15 as well as BLC2 and 748. Even 3031 has given good results WITH 150gr bullets.

However, the 180’s to 220’s need slower powders. RL22 has been a standout for me. Top velocities with great accuracy.
The Sierra 180gr ProHunter over 58.0gr duplicates most factory loads and is usually VERY accurate. My 2- bolt action sporters prefer 60.0gr. This yields 2,800fps and shoots under MOA in both. (24”bbl’s).
Another good powder is IMR4831.
Finally, IMR4350 is THE most accurate powder in my two, with RL17 and H4350 close behind. 55.0gr with 180’s, 57.0gr with 165-168.

I too think you might try a plastic shim under the barrel on the pad near the forend. It “cured” a Remington M700 Tactical that was disappointing me.