.30 Carbine rechambered to .22 TCM????

[Acera]

Another thread in Rifle Country got me thinking about a project and wanted to see if others had some input on it viability.

Melvin Johnson developed a cartridge and chambered it for the .30 carbine, the .22 Spitfire aka 5.7mm Johnson or MMJ 5.7mm Johnson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Spitfire

This little round was an early example of what a number of companies like FN, HK and others have built firearms for under the PDW concept. Basically take a rifle cartridge case, neck it down to shoot a smaller, faster bullet. Push a 20-40gr +/- pill out in the 2,800+/- FPS range, with light recoil.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HK_4.6×30mm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.38×30mm_Libra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_5.7×28mm


Well while there is still a following of the Johnson designed cartridge, I feel it's day may have passed for gaining even a moderate following in the future.

My idea is take a solid rifle like the .30 carbine which has been re-chambered in a variety of other rounds from .22LR to 9mm para and chamber it in the .22 TCM. .30 carbines have been the basis for other rifles in both gas operated (since the 1940s) and blowback models (since at least the 1960s). So thinking it's pretty adaptable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_TCM

While this is still a proprietary cartridge owned by Rock Island Armory, I think it has potential as a short range varmint and small game hunting rifle as well as a personal defense weapon. Don't know when it becomes public for other makers to produce. Pretty sure Armscor is open to more business opportunities and sales, so licensing may be on the table.

My second selling point is that you can find a 1911 style pistol chambered for it that has proven to be popular among it's owners.
http://armscor.com/firearms/tcm-series/

Buds sells their combination .22 TCM/9mm pistol for under $700.
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog...rmory+51961+TCM+TAC+Ultra+FS+Combo+-+22TCM9mm


And they even have a bolt action rifle in it.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/reviews/rock-island-armory-22tcm-review/
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/12/18/review-rock-island-arsenal-22-tcm-bolt-action-rifle/



My third point is that commercially produced ammunition is available for those that don't want to reload.


Next, if you do want to roll your own, the process is similar to the .300 Blackout and uses the same 5.56mm parent cartridge.


Also, some folks like the wood and blued steel rifles better than the more modern polymer/plastic/space age material look and design. This rifle would pay homage to the times and values of yesteryear.


More positive news is that the M1 Carbine is currently being made by a number of companies, so no need to use surplus GI issued rifles if you don't want to.


I have cut down 5.56mm cases, and they fit fine in a .30 carbine magazine, plenty of room to spare. Only did 3, so don't know how an entire 30 round magazine would work, but may buy a box of .22 TCM and check it out.


Finally, last reason I am thinking of right now (more may follow later) is the doom and gloom on the horizon that is forecast by many regarding our beloved MSRs. It seems to be based on looks, and not performance (color of skin, not content of character anyone??). Rifles like Rugers Mini-14 series were molested less than others in the past. This rifle would fit into that not-as-scary-to-liberals category.


For those folks that are less into firearms than most members here, who want a defensive rifle and pistol, but don't want a bunch of calibers and stuff this might be a strong selling point. Think of the 'if you could only have 3 guns' debate which is popular on the internet. One of these with the pistol and a shotgun. (Please, lets not get deep into that, just wrote this as an idea not a debate topic.)


I know herself, who loves her WWII IBM and dislikes her AR-15s would consider it for purchase.



OK THR, what say you????

Is this a good idea?

How bad of an idea is it?

Is it workable?

Know any good gunsmiths that might want to take on the project? Need someone to figure out gas pressure issues, weight of operating rod, spring strength and the multitude of other issues involved in a firearm design that I am not familiar with.

Also, has it been done? I can't find much.










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[mavracer]

It'd prolly be easier to rebarrel one of the Chiappa 9mm carbines than to make a #0 Carbine work with the shorter round.

 

[Acera]

Yeah, I've tried to like that rifle. Was set on purchasing one before they came out. Big plus to me was they used Beretta magazines which I have a bunch of.

When I handled it, the excitement wore off. Did not feel right to me.

This old rifle re-sparked my interest, as I would bet it is a lot better made.
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/583770770

That one has a block in it that compensates for the shorter 9mm round.


Got a good Houston gun show in a week or so, will probably scour the incoming crowd to see if I can get a deal on a GI as the host. Personally, I would like to keep it as close to that parts set as possible.

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[boom boom]

A one-off conversion could work if you are will to throw money at the problem. Semi-autos are more difficult than single shots or bolt actions to convert to other calibers because the self-feeding mechanism is designed around a specific cartridge.

The Spitfire, sort of worked, because it was simply a necked down .30 Carbine case but the cartridge head, the OAL, etc. was based on the parent case. From what I learned from others, it was a hit or miss, fairly inaccurate, conversion. Did not buy one when available after research on other's experiences because of it.

However, one of the weaknesses of the M1 Carbine is feeding from the magazine. Some are reliable and some are not. Given the semi-auto issue and that the M1 was designed around a different cartridge, my guess is that you will have to surmount the feeding problem first. Semi-autos that do not feed correctly can be dangerous for all sorts of reasons such as slam fires and out of battery discharges and creating awful jams that often required disassembly to clear.

If you want something like the M1 for yourself, simply buy a 10/22 in .22 mag and put it in the M1 carbine look alike stocks for the 10/22 that can be purchased. You get an action known to feed properly and get a cartridge comparable to the .22 TCM without the cartridge being proprietary. I think Mitchell Arms has a similar semi-auto carbine that could be adapted.

Erma made a .22 LR Carbine and I believe that Chiappa currently does but I am not sure about the strength or suitability for adapting to the high pressure TCM cartridge.

Or ask Armscor to produce a clone firearm using the cartridge--they already have some look alike long guns such as their AR clone that they produce.

 

[Kendal Black]

The concept of running the same ammo in pistol and carbine appeals to a lot of people. I see no reason why a hot little .22 centerfire wouldn't work out. The proprietary ammo question will need working out, because John Q. likes to be able to buy ammo anyplace, and he likes brand competition so he can look for a bargain, and so that he is not locked into a single source.

As a one-off hobbyist project, a Carbine, M1 in .22 TCM sounds great, but its commercial appeal will depend on the demand and supply of .22 TCM becoming like other, more mainstream cartridges. If you can buy the ammo at Walmart, that's the way John Q. likes it.

 

[Acera]

Thanks boom boom,

Got plenty of 10-22s and other .22 semi autos, not looking for another.

Don't feel the Chiappa is as well made as those from the past. I like a bit more solid feel than they give. Hard to explain, but the metal does not feel the same to me, like it's a lot cheaper. Bumping what was designed for .22LR pressures up to the .22TCM is not something I would consider right now. However from a cost perspective that would be a cheaper alternative if it would work. But, I still have that first issue with their guns.....

Also got a few, regular .30 carbines. I understand the magazine issues, hopefully a bottleneck cartridge will help with that.

I figure that modifying a GI bolt and extractor would not be that big an issue as it's close in size to what I need. But, for now a one off is what I am thinking. Just got off the phone with a smith, got an appointment this evening for another thing and will talk to him about this project.



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[lemaymiami]

It's a great idea but you'll face some serious practical difficulties before it's more than a project (projects are fun if you have the time, money, etc. - but that's not the same as having a solid, functioning result....).

The first item will be something not readily apparent until you do a bit of research... new, commercial carbines haven't exactly been trouble free, using basic 30 carbine FMJ ammo. Both the Auto Ordnance (also called almost ordnance....) and the New Inland are using the same parts... Go to Milsurps.com, the carbine board and look up what folks have to say about New Inland (crack a cold one first there were over 17 pages the last time I looked..). In essence production shortcuts have been a problem for both items (and they retail at around $800..). Yes, there are some fine repros being made - the best of them from Fulton Armory are around $1500... If it were me, I'd want to start with a solid properly cycling carbine before doing any mods (but that's just me...).

The second obvious problem will what it's worth when you finish... Old war babies (WWII era carbines) are money in the bank.. Whatever you pay for one now - it will be worth more as time goes by. Any modified carbines won't be worth much at all if you ever intend to sell it after doing the project...

Good luck, I have a Plainfield (I couldn't afford a war baby) and it's quite accurate (mine was from around 1971) but I can't say it's 100% reliable yet. I'm still getting one or two failures to cycle per 15 round mag... Nothing that can't be cleared by working the bolt and/or removing then reinstalling the mags... but that's the kind of thing you may find with quite a few carbines still on the market. Good luck on your project and post up how it turns out... By the way be very leery of any commercial springs for carbines. I bought a set from a very well known gun parts house - and they were clearly sub-standard. Your best bet for carbine springs will always be NOS GI surplus springs (and I'd want to see the package they came in -particularly for Ejector, Extractor, and Recoil springs (the heart of you cycling system..).

 

[Sun Tzu warrior]

.30 Carbine rechambered to .22 TCM????
This is impossible, you may be able to re-barrel and make it work, but there is nothing you can do to make a .30 cal barrel shoot .224 dia bullets.
I have the RIA .22 TCM and it is awesome!
The magazines are 38 super, and are modified somewhat.
STW

 

[Acera]

.30 Carbine rechambered to .22 TCM????
This is impossible, you may be able to re-barrel and make it work, but there is nothing you can do to make a .30 cal barrel shoot .224 dia bullets.

Ya Think????? LOL




Pretty much have that figured out, but thanks anyway.........................




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[barnbwt]

It'd prolly be easier to rebarrel one of the Chiappa 9mm carbines than to make a #0 Carbine work with the shorter round.

The Chiappas are simple blowback guns --pretty sure TCM is in a locked-breech 1911 capable of handling 460 Rowland for a reason

Which brings us to the real problem with a conversion; cost. Carbines certainly aren't cheap any more, the true repros coming out are even worse, and even parts kits & what few receivers are out there command a premium. This build would not only be expensive and labor intensive, you'd be potentially sacrificing a dwindling supply of carbines (so unless you already have a few, you'd be less inclined to dive in and modify your own)

A VLD 22-caliber Carbine of 20-30 capacity would be awesome, though. Even necking the Johnson further back and cutting it down to fit a larger bullet at the expense of a little power potential would be a solid win in my book (you'd get something slightly more powder than 5.7x28, and could safely operate at 'magnum' pressures with slower powders without worrying about ruining brass, for a result that I suspect slightly exceeds 22TCM but shoots flat like 5.7 & with even less recoil than 30 Carbine)

TCB

 

[amd6547]

While its an intriguing idea, and it would be great to see a new option in an affordable modem M1 carbine...I'm not sure what a 22 TCM carbine could do that a 30 carbine can't.

 

[Sunray]

.22 TCM, being based on the .223, would require altering the bolt face and extractor to use the larger cartridge. Not insurmountable, but not cheap if you're not doing it yourself either. Machining runs over $100 per hour plus the cost of set up and the drawings.
And altering the mags, both for the 415 thou difference in length and the width of the TCM. Also not insurmountable.
The only issue would be finding a barrel. It's be a totally cu$tom made barrel(not a converted .22 LR barrel) that'd cost a fortune.
"...what a 22 TCM carbine could do that..." Isn't really the point. We're spending Acera's money. snicker.
"...have a Plainfield..." Ditto. About the same vintage too. Before IJ ruined 'em. No issues, of any kind, a good bath didn't fix. The one 30 round mag I have required a wee bit of a tweak on the lips to make it work reliably. Mine's partial to Speer 110 grain HPs with IMR4227. Mind you, even Plainfields are running a sizeable chunk of money these days.

 

[lemaymiami]

Mine in nearly new condition was slightly less than $600 - a beater grade war baby will be $800 minimum (and CMP auction war babies will run well over $1000 -most quite a bit over that) Here's the current list...

http://cmpauction.thecmp.org/catalog.asp?catid=363&n=M1-Carbine

 

[Jim K]

".30 Carbine rechambered to .22 TCM????
This is impossible, ..."

"Ya Think?????
Pretty much have that figured out, but thanks anyway........................."

Well, the first post sure sounded like a few details like the original caliber of the barrel were being overlooked.

BTW, .22 TCM is not the same as or even close to the .22 MMJ.

Jim

 

[rondog]

Sorry, but I prefer my M1 Carbines in something like, oh, say - .30 Carbine..... AIM Surplus has some trainers now in .22lr, which would be cool, or even 9mm. But .22TCM doesn't appeal to me.

 

[Acera]

Jim K, that first post got real long. Of course there are some details let out. Since the conversation was started around the 5.7 Johnson, a new barrel was assumed as it was on Johnsons rifle. Also, if you do a 9mm, you need a new barrel for that also. May be thinking ahead of some people, but I thought that was beyond obvious.

Regarding the .22TCM is close the the .22MMJ/Spitfire

Both push a small .22 caliber 40 gr. bullet in the 2,800+/- fps range. For PDW purpose or small game it ain't that much of a difference. If you want to get into construction,fine I know they have different parent cartridges and different lengths, but performance wise they are pretty close to each other.

Like a whole lot of threads on this forum, the idea does not appeal to a lot of folks, if it ain't for you, fine. Take a dump on the idea if you like, then move on, but I am still talking to smiths about it.



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[CapnMac]

22 tcm might not be the right direction. A 6mm on a necked-down .30 carbine case (6mm30carb is inelegant, maybe .236Carbine would be a better handle) would make a better choice.

This would be an interesting intermediate cartridge. But the length would make it problematic in pistols.

But, given that .30carbine is already approximately a .357mag in performance, it would be hard to much improve that--not without getting down to about 5mm projos, which would give the gentle-shooting Carbine an evil kick instead.

 

[MadMurdock85]

Have fun getting a 22tcm chamber reamer of the new style armscor changed the shoulder angle not too far into production so when you do get one make sure it's the new style. Took me MONTHS to get and had to turn my own headspace gauges. Great round, fun to shoot and nasty ballistics for a short .223. Have fun and let us know how it turns out!

 

[boom boom]

Acera,
Thanks for your kind words.

I agree that a bottleneck cartridge would be the way to go. Haven't looked up the TCM cartridge in detail but is it tapered bottleneck cartridge like the 7.62x39 russian or a straight bottleneck case. Tapering would definitely help with feeding and extraction and avoiding out of battery discharges.

Since a gunsmith's time is money, the more that you can do to determine whether it will feed should lessen the overall bill. Junk gunshow .30 M1 clone magazines along with a M1 action (bolt and receiver) might give you some answers on feeding such as whether you need a magazine block, what the optimal angle for the feed lips of the mags, angle of the feed ramp (can build up with removable material to determine what might be the optimal angle--I would cut into the feedramp at the very last resort). You might see if Armscor USA has the TCM magazine follower as a part and then try to adapt it to fit the junk M1 mags. I think Sarco has some forged M1 carbine lookalike receivers (think it is around 250-300) and some project barrels from the old PMC carbine that do not have the chambers bored for about $30. Might give you a start on the project.

Keep us informed as you are willing to be an explorer of new territory, I would like to know what you've found out.