300 blackout was a mistake

[David Hoback]

One thing I don’t get is why people think of it as being a better hunting round...or have more of the mythological “knock down” power.

Here are actual ballistics.
.224” 77gr SMK bullet- 0.372 BC & 0.219 SD

.308” 125gr SMK bullet- 0.338 BC &
0.188 SD

Now, given the speeds these Bullard are loaded for they will achieve very similar muzzle energy... between 1250-1400ft.lbs. Given the inherent nature & this information, the 223 comes out on top in EVERY category. Accuracy, long range ability & lethality. Where are people getting their info from?

Oh, and if you don’t understand the numbers I referenced, you shouldn’t be replying.

 

[HB]

One thing I don’t get is why people think of it as being a better hunting round...or have more of the mythological “knock down” power.

Here are actual ballistics.
.224” 77gr SMK bullet- 0.372 BC & 0.219 SD

.308” 125gr SMK bullet- 0.338 BC &
0.188 SD

Now, given the speeds these Bullard are loaded for they will achieve very similar muzzle energy... between 1250-1400ft.lbs. Given the inherent nature & this information, the 223 comes out on top in EVERY category. Accuracy, long range ability & lethality. Where are people getting their info from?

Oh, and if you don’t understand the numbers I referenced, you shouldn’t be replying.

But the bullet is .085” wider???

 

[Varminterror]

@David Hoback - it’s pretty straight forward. Kinetic Energy is a poor indicator of potential performance in a real world, inelastic collision. Kinetic Energy is not conserved. Momentum, however, is.

125 @ 2200 / 7000 = 39.3 lbm ft/s

77 @ 2750 / 7000 = 32.4 lbm ft/s

21% favor for the Blackout.

It’s a shame you haven’t taken the opportunity to stray from the 5.56/223 in the AR. There are dozens of cartridges with unique attributes for various applications in the AR. Some more versatile than others - which is where the 300 does tend to come up relatively short.

 

[GHinNH]

I have a buddy that did because it was cool and everybody cool had one. I laughed at him for it.

I think he shot it six times, complaining each time how much they cost and had to buy online because the little mom&pop sporting goods stores around here don't carry stuff like that.

If somebody was giving an upper away, I'd take it to use with a can. Other than that...nope

 

[GHinNH]

yup, 7.62x39 hits another gear with CFE BLK

What are you guys using for "brass"?

 

[marksman13]

Gordon mentioned it, and Swampman corrected for The “Who“ in developing the 300 Whisper. Here is a good article explaining them. Funny thing, both saw light of day long before we AR enthusiasts became privy to their existence. That is, unless you naturally research these sorts of things.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2012/11/5/shades-of-gray-300-whisper-300-aac-blackout/

My take on it all? Well, I’ve been researching & building ARs longer than a lot of folks. Building more than most over the years. Yet I’ve never strayed from 223/5.56. Nothing wrong with doing a 300aac. I just wish people would admit to what it is. Give it a name. It’s the “Shiny new toy” and and many people like shiny new toys. Not as the Whisper though. No, no, no...it was far too difficult & expensive back then to have any practical purpose. But now that it’s SAAMI & mainstream, sad is suppressor technology. Well, now everyone suddenly has a use for one. LOL. Ok. Sure...because suppressors have such a practical purpose and all.

More power to you. Me, I’ll continue with 223 in my ARs. And mine will continue to be more accurate, have greater range of distance & stop an attacker just as they have been doing in our Armed Forces for over 50 years.

For someone who’s built ARs for so long, you sure are narrow-minded when it comes to their application and use. I’ve built quite a few myself and I’m capable of understanding the advantages that certain cartridges have over the 5.56.

 

[marksman13]

But now that it’s SAAMI & mainstream, sad is suppressor technology. Well, now everyone suddenly has a use for one. LOL. Ok. Sure...because suppressors have such a practical purpose and all.

I’ve found a pretty practical purpose for 8 suppressors to this point. Practical and “practical to you” are not the same thing, but please continue to speak for all of us...

 

[GBExpat]

Why would anyone own a 300blk without a suppressor? ...

I did not succumb to the hype (I rarely do).

In Fall 2019 I started thinking that an AR Pistol might be nice to have. I did some research that suggested the .300BLK was optimal in the short barrels. I had zero interest in building/owning a 9½" .223/5.56 AR Pistol.

Over several months I kept a lookout for good deals on decent components and by early February had accumulated everything required.

In March and/or April I built the pistol. Very nice, very short, very handy, not terribly light-weight.

A nice companion for my 10(?) AR Uppers and 8(?) AR Lowers.

Perhaps someday prices on cans will come down enough that I will buy one ... but I will not be holding my breath.

 

[David Hoback]

For someone who’s built ARs for so long, you sure are narrow-minded when it comes to their application and use. I’ve built quite a few myself and I’m capable of understanding the advantages that certain cartridges have over the 5.56.

Closed minded huh I’m speaking of the AR15 platform. So we are limited to the confinement of the magazine....generally about 2.25” oal. I understand there are other calibers that will do a SINGLE task better. I learned long ago that I’m not a firearms collector. I tried when I was a youngster with very little knowledge. As a young 20-something I had a mess of many different calibers, and quickly found I wasn’t able to afford to feed them all. If your pockets are that deep, more power to ya. (A statement I also used in my previous post, so) But I couldn’t.

So please list ANY other caliber that can do AS MANY tasks as & AS EFFECTIVELY as 223 is able. Being that was exactly the context I was implying. I’ll wait.

 

[Varminterror]

I’d challenge that the 223/5.56 is exceptionally limited in utility for civilians, compared to OTHER AR-15 length cartridges. 6.5 Grendel, 6mm ARC, 6.8 SPC all do more for a civilian AR shooter than does the 5.56/223.

 

[David Hoback]

I’ve found a pretty practical purpose for 8 suppressors to this point. Practical and “practical to you” are not the same thing, but please continue to speak for all of us...

Oh, well I apologize. Not all of us are Super Secret, Jason Bourne Hitmen...living on the set of Patriot Games!

Stay safe John Wick!

 

[GHinNH]

What's wrong

Oh, well I apologize. Not all of us are Super Secret, Jason Bourne Hitmen...living on the set of Patriot Games!

Stay safe John Wick!

I never knew until this point that I was a hitman? YIKES! I saw nothing in any of the paperwork ....Hmmmm....

 

[marksman13]

Oh, well I apologize. Not all of us are Super Secret, Jason Bourne Hitmen...living on the set of Patriot Games!

Stay safe John Wick!

I’m honestly beginning to question your level of intelligence at this point. Oh well, I’ve got to go. These contracts aren’t gonna wait forever. I’ll check back when I finish killing bad guys...

 

[marksman13]

Closed minded huh I’m speaking of the AR15 platform. So we are limited to the confinement of the magazine....generally about 2.25” oal. I understand there are other calibers that will do a SINGLE task better. I learned long ago that I’m not a firearms collector. I tried when I was a youngster with very little knowledge. As a young 20-something I had a mess of many different calibers, and quickly found I wasn’t able to afford to feed them all. If your pockets are that deep, more power to ya. (A statement I also used in my previous post, so) But I couldn’t.

So please list ANY other caliber that can do AS MANY tasks as & AS EFFECTIVELY as 223 is able. Being that was exactly the context I was implying. I’ll wait.

1. 6.8 SPC
2. 6.5 Grendel
3. 224 Valkyrie
4. 6mm ARC

Your move.

 

[marksman13]

I’d challenge that the 223/5.56 is exceptionally limited in utility for civilians, compared to OTHER AR-15 length cartridges. 6.5 Grendel, 6mm ARC, 6.8 SPC all do more for a civilian AR shooter than does the 5.56/223.

I can say without reservation that my 6.8 SPC, 6.5 G, 300 BLK and 458 SOCOM all see more use than any of my 5.56 rifles. Honestly, if it weren’t for cheap ammo, I probably would not own a 5.56 AR. As you stated, the 6.8 SPC, 6.5 G and 6mm ARC COMPLETELY outclass the 5.56 in all practical applications. The 300 BLK and 458 SOCOM are niche rounds, but both are better for suppressed pig shooting than the 5.56. That said, I generally prefer 5.56 to 300 BLK for hunting purposes. I’ve just seen better success rates with heavy 5.56 bullets than I have with 300 BLK.

 

[Gordon]

In normal times ball 5.56 was down to almost $300 a thousand. Even 7.62x39 decent steel case was't at low in the low point. I love AKs in the soviet round BTW.
A fun fact is with a good supersonic rated .300 Black Suppressor ( I actually use a 9mm full auto one on mine) , it works pretty well on supersonic 5.56 carbines. Good enough for my uses. Subsonic .300 AAC is quiet enough for me with a 9mm can on it.

 

[BreechFace]

What are you guys using for "brass"?

I have a smattering of different brass. Predominately, Fiocchi and Hornady. I just purchase factory ammo to shoot for the brass. I stick to brass with small primers.

One can also get PPU, Sellier & Bellot, and Winchester but I believe 2 out of three of those are large primer pockets ( I believe it’s Winchester and S&B)

 

[GBExpat]

What are you guys using for "brass"?

I bought my initial supply (250) from Starline.

 

[David Hoback]

1. 6.8 SPC
2. 6.5 Grendel
3. 224 Valkyrie
4. 6mm ARC

Your move.

You know, I suggest you be mindful of the insults Marksman13!
THIS is uncalled for in a conversation such as this. “I’m honestly beginning to question your level of intelligence at this point” At no point did I make any insulting comment towards you or anyone. This is just talking... and it’s even OK if we disagree. Agreed?

Ok... While 6.5 Grendel, 224 Valkyrie & 6mm ARC do have better ballistics..NONE give the same round count in a magazine. NONE have close to the options available as 223. Brass is far more difficult or impossible to find for any of of them! Ammunition & even brass is incredibly expensive! And 6.8spc besides the other items, doesn’t have the effective range.

 

[marksman13]

You know, I suggest you be mindful of the insults Marksman13!
THIS is uncalled for in a conversation such as this. “I’m honestly beginning to question your level of intelligence at this point” At no point did I make any insulting comment towards you or anyone. This is just talking... and it’s even OK if we disagree. Agreed?

Ok... While 6.5 Grendel, 224 Valkyrie & 6mm ARC do have better ballistics..NONE give the same round count in a magazine. NONE have close to the options available as 223. Brass is far more difficult or impossible to find for any of of them! Ammunition & even brass is incredibly expensive! And 6.8spc besides the other items, doesn’t have the effective range.

Meh...I don’t really consider it an insult as much as a statement of truth. Maybe it’s ignorance more than intelligence, but you obviously don’t know as much as you pretend to know about the AR-15 or the cartridges it can be chambered in.

On the subject of the 6.8 vs 5.56, you bring any 5.56 you want to the range and I will smoke it with my 6.8 out to 600 yards. There’s not much that the 6.5 G will do that the 6.8 SPC will not do. Again, maybe this is just ignorance talking and not a lack of intelligence, but you were the guy who mentioned your vast experience as an AR builder, nor did I piss all over somebody else’s choices, or make the John Wick comments. You want to be a smart a$$, that’s fine, but don’t pull your foul card as soon as I give you a dose of what you are dishing out.

 

[marksman13]

Ok... While 6.5 Grendel, 224 Valkyrie & 6mm ARC do have better ballistics..NONE give the same round count in a magazine. NONE have close to the options available as 223. Brass is far more difficult or impossible to find for any of of them! Ammunition & even brass is incredibly expensive! And 6.8spc besides the other items, doesn’t have the effective range.

I’ve never been in a situation where 30 rounds would do the job when 28 wouldn’t, and actually download my mags to 28 rounds with 5.56. To your second point, I can still buy 6.8 and 6.5 G locally, but stores are completely sold out of 5.56...you were saying...

 

[Robert]

Seems we have drifted into the weeds. Let's call it a day for this one.