300yard rifle matches?

[Axis II]

I was doing some research on other gun clubs in my area that a few friends belong too and one offers several matches including 300yard rifle matches. I have always wanted to compete and I have skill at 100yards but never shot anything past that other than a few woodchuck but it was precision work. I have a few question for you guys below if ya don't mind.

Right now my savage axis 2 heavy barrel 223rem with vortex crossfire 6-18 AO. shoots 55gr V max flat based on a very good day 5 shots I could cover with a nickel and bad with a quarter at 100yards. Is my gear up to par for 300yard matches? Right now I'm using Caldwell front and rear bags but looking to upgrade to something a little better on the front bag end. maybe a Caldwell benchrest. I ask this cause I seen some of their pictures on their site and seems to be some high dollar rifles in there.

Would say loading SMK or something similar be beneficial for 300yard or are they more for longer range accuracy and the v max will do?

Does 300yards have a lot of wind effect?

Glass bed and pillar bed the new boyds stock I'm getting for the rifle of 300yards doesn't matter much?

I noticed in their pics they do prone too. Buy an expensive shooting mat or a mid/cheap one would suffice? Right now I have a Blackhawk small bipod should I spring for a Harris?

Right now I have burris high rings on the rifle because medium and lower to the bolt hits the scope. should I try and find a cheek riser? if so what kind? I don't really have an issue at 100yards so not sure if it will matter at 300yards.

 

[Axis II]

Oh and thank you for the replies!

 

[Varminterror]

Skip the Caldwell "bench rest." The windage top has so much slop in the worm gear to be functional. The bulk elevation slider has a lot of run out as well, which induces a bit of wobble in the top. The elevator adjustment screw also has a lot of slop, such it's just not precise enough. It's ironic they call it the "Rock," since it's only slightly more useful as a front rest than a rock...

The Bald Eagle rest is as cheap or cheaper than the Rock BR, and it's a far better rest. If you're wanting to compete, the Bald Eagle is the minimum quality front rest I would recommend.

When you say 300yrd matches, and talk about a machine rest to be used during the match, I'm assuming it's a benchrest match. The Boyd's stock isn't great, and can't really be great, but it'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the factory Axis stock. Pillar block and glass bed the action, free float the barrel, relieve the magwell, and pray your barrel doesn't walk as you heat up during a string.

Covering a 100yrd group with a nickel is great for an Axis, but it's pretty lack luster for a match rifle. The guys who showed me the ropes getting into 600/1000yrd benchrest and F-class said the basic rule of thumb for self-qualification: When you're reliably delivering 1" at 300yrds, then you're ready for 600/1000yrd competition. A nickel at 100yrds would be something like 2.5" at 300yrds.

223rem is going to get smoked at 300yrd matches if there is anyone in the group serious about it. The small case 6's will run roughshod over your 223rem... ppc, BR, dasher, etc. Even at 300yrds, wind will tear apart the 223rem while the guys shooting the 6mm's will fight through with smiles on their faces. I understand you own it, so you want to use it, and maybe even want any excuse you can find to upgrade it, AND it really can be a nice "first season" introduction to the game, but I'd be remiss if I didn't try to cast some sense of realism for what you have in front of you.

 

[kimberkid]

To summerize Varminterror, it depends on how competitive you want to be!

I didn't see it in his post, but if this is something you think you want to do, you should also seriously consider reloading if you don't already ... Not only can you taylor your ammo for your gun, you'll be able to practice for a lot less!

If you're interested, I'd say go for it with your current equipment and see if it's something you'll enjoy ... Also, most of the guys I encountered when I started shooting CMP Service Rifle matches love to talk about their equipment and will help you find good deals, they may even have good equipment they don't use any more!

Best of luck!

 

[Axis II]

Skip the Caldwell "bench rest." The windage top has so much slop in the worm gear to be functional. The bulk elevation slider has a lot of run out as well, which induces a bit of wobble in the top. The elevator adjustment screw also has a lot of slop, such it's just not precise enough. It's ironic they call it the "Rock," since it's only slightly more useful as a front rest than a rock...

The Bald Eagle rest is as cheap or cheaper than the Rock BR, and it's a far better rest. If you're wanting to compete, the Bald Eagle is the minimum quality front rest I would recommend.

When you say 300yrd matches, and talk about a machine rest to be used during the match, I'm assuming it's a benchrest match. The Boyd's stock isn't great, and can't really be great, but it'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the factory Axis stock. Pillar block and glass bed the action, free float the barrel, relieve the magwell, and pray your barrel doesn't walk as you heat up during a string.

Covering a 100yrd group with a nickel is great for an Axis, but it's pretty lack luster for a match rifle. The guys who showed me the ropes getting into 600/1000yrd benchrest and F-class said the basic rule of thumb for self-qualification: When you're reliably delivering 1" at 300yrds, then you're ready for 600/1000yrd competition. A nickel at 100yrds would be something like 2.5" at 300yrds.

223rem is going to get smoked at 300yrd matches if there is anyone in the group serious about it. The small case 6's will run roughshod over your 223rem... ppc, BR, dasher, etc. Even at 300yrds, wind will tear apart the 223rem while the guys shooting the 6mm's will fight through with smiles on their faces. I understand you own it, so you want to use it, and maybe even want any excuse you can find to upgrade it, AND it really can be a nice "first season" introduction to the game, but I'd be remiss if I didn't try to cast some sense of realism for what you have in front of you.

As usual good advice in explaining why. I always appreciate that from you guys then those that just say it wont work. Thank you!

I didn't think the 223rem would be that bad with wind at 300yards-glad I asked. I'm not sure if their website pictures were from matches or something online but some of the rifles and rests I see I said holly cow! expensive stuff right there! I'm not sure if its benchrest only or what cause some pics had guys prone and some on benches. Some pictures guys had AR and some Garand's and some with those bull barrels that look like a baseball bat! I kind of figured I might be undergunned!

Got another question for ya @Varminterror if I went with a heavier 223rem bullet would this help me out or still need something a little heavier/faster?

 

[Axis II]

To summerize Varminterror, it depends on how competitive you want to be!

I didn't see it in his post, but if this is something you think you want to do, you should also seriously consider reloading if you don't already ... Not only can you taylor your ammo for your gun, you'll be able to practice for a lot less!

If you're interested, I'd say go for it with your current equipment and see if it's something you'll enjoy ... Also, most of the guys I encountered when I started shooting CMP Service Rifle matches love to talk about their equipment and will help you find good deals, they may even have good equipment they don't use any more!

Best of luck!

I do reload. this gun shoots factory like buckshot but reloads very well.

 

[Axis II]

@Varminterror I just checked their site again and looks like modern rifles that are factory spec shoot separate and custom rifles shoot with custom rifles. Looks like they do 4 different classes from CMP style rifles, AR fall into military and modern factory such as my savage fall into their own. I figured it would be fun just didn't want to make a rear end of myself.

 

[coloradokevin]

This is a broad reaching question with no definitive answer. Here's my advice on competition shooting:

1) Go try it! You'll learn more about what you want/need/desire by doing it than you ever will by speculating. You will likely find that you want to change some things in your kit or your ammo after you shoot a match, but you won't know until you try. You may also discover that some things you thought you were going to change don't really need changed after all.

2) The "am I good enough / is my stuff good enough" question also depends on the match you're shooting. With each genre of shooting I've competed in, I've found that it was relatively easy to get into the middle of the pack in a club-level match, even without experience in that genre previously. Moving up to being competitive in regional or national level matches is an entirely different animal. Even if you come in dead last, you'll learn something and have fun. There's a match that takes place monthly down at the Whittington Center in New Mexico, and a lot of Denver-area folks like myself go to that match. It's a field course shooting 5-10" targets from around 250 to 875 yards. When you go to that match you'll find some people are national level competitors shooting $10K rigs, and other guys are hunters shooting their $800 hunting rig. You can still learn something even if you aren't yet winning!

3) 300 yards is going to produce some POI shift due to wind, and you'll need to consider it, but it isn't going to be a huge part of the equation like it is when you're shooting at 1,000+ yards. For example, with my .260 Remington (my competition gun) I'll have a 3.9" POI shift (0.4 MIL) in a 10mph direct crosswind at 300 yards. At 1000 yards that wind drift opens up to 51.7 inches (1.4 MIL), and by 1,250 yards (the longest shot in some of our local matches) we're looking at 86 inches of windage (1.9 MIL).

 

[Varminterror]

I didn't see it in his post, but if this is something you think you want to do, you should also seriously consider reloading if you don't already

Didn't need to call it out in my post - it's a given (mathematically, literally), as I know @ohihunter2014 well enough to already know he reloads.

I didn't think the 223rem would be that bad with wind at 300yards-glad I asked.

300 yards is going to produce some POI shift due to wind, and you'll need to consider it, but it isn't going to be a huge part of the equation like it is when you're shooting at 1,000+ yards.

It's not really "bad," but it does get pushed around a lot more than the others. Short range benchrest is a very exacting game, guys shoot DISGUSTINGLY small groups, so while you might not blow a mile off of target, a half inch might as well be a mile. It really depends on the bullet chosen - if a guy is shooting the 80 Berger in 6BR, he'll drift more than you would with a 223rem and the 75 A-max. If he's shooting a 105 Hybrid, you'll drift about 15% more than he - about an inch more drift. Comparing those two - if you can only estimate within +/-2mph, you'll have about 2.5" incipient wind drift in your group, while your competition will only have 2.25"... And if they're more experienced and estimating wind +/-1mph to your 2, or maybe even +/-3mph, they'll only be spreading 1.1" for wind, while you're spreading 2.5-3.5" in the wind....

So no, the magnitude of the wind shift isn't as dramatic at 300yrds as it is at 1,000, but how well you estimate wind AND how well your cartridge resists wind drift does make a difference in whose name ends up at the top of the scoresheet and whose ends up at the bottom. Less vulnerability to wind is less wind dispersion, and 300yrds is far enough for wind to affect the scoresheets. If the wind is inducing an extra inch of wind in your group over the guy beside you running a heavier cartridge,

if I went with a heavier 223rem bullet would this help me out or still need something a little heavier/faster?

Heavier, more aerodynamic bullets will drift less. For 223 past 200yrds, I really want to be north of 69grn, ideally running the 75 A-max/ELD-M.

I just checked their site again and looks like modern rifles that are factory spec shoot separate and custom rifles shoot with custom rifles.

Most match types do have a "factory" or "hunter" category where a normal rifle can get its feet wet. However, I'd assume that would preclude your plan to swap to a Boyd's stock, as most of these factory classes do require bone stock factory rifles. A call or email to the MD would answer that question for you.

BEST ADVICE I CAN GIVE:

1. Email the MD to ask what can be done to your Axis without kicking you out of Factory class - if the new stock will fit you better, it may be worth it to play in Open class anyway.
   
2. Go shoot. Get out and burn powder, put the rubber on the road and let yourself learn what you want or need to do to improve.
   
3. Expect to get your butt kicked - cuz you're going to, and it has nothing to do with you personally or your gear. Even if you dropped $4500 for a top line rig, experience matters. This is why I say the new stock may be worth the "penalty" of getting bumped to Open class. Even with knowledge, gear, and ability, it's almost inevitable new guys are going to make SOME mistake when they're stuck into a match format, and dropping a few points can mean dropping a lot of places.
   
4. Expect to have a lot of fun, despite getting your butt kicked. A bad day shooting is still a good day.
   
5. Pay attention and learn as much as you can. Try as many rifles as you can, as many stocks as you can, triggers, scopes, etc. Ask questions to the other guys on the line, how they're loading, what they like about their gear, what they don't like, what wind call they made for a string...
   
6. Decide how you'll keep shooting - whether that means being content getting out burning powder and never topping the list, or means shelling out a kidney to build a new rig which could give you a shot. Or whether you even enjoy that type of shooting, or might want to go after a different type.

 

[Axis II]

@Varminterror as you may have heard me state the axis has a short throat do you think ill have any issue with the 75gr A max in OAL? I have a 1-9 twist so should stabilize that weight IMO. I was playing with the idea of getting some of the RMR 68gr bullets do you think those would suffice or go with the 75gr?

Oh and I tried looking up the bald eagle rest but cant seem to find them. several sites say discontinued.

 

[Varminterror]

@Varminterror as you may have heard me state the axis has a short throat do you think ill have any issue with the 75gr A max in OAL? I have a 1-9 twist so should stabilize that weight IMO. I was playing with the idea of getting some of the RMR 68gr bullets do you think those would suffice or go with the 75gr?

Oh and I tried looking up the bald eagle rest but cant seem to find them. several sites say discontinued.

First:

Cast Iron Bald Eagle Rest $200

The Aluminum base model is $140, but I prefer the cast for stability during recoil.

Second: with the 1:9" barrel, you can try the 75 ELD-M, I do fine with it in a 26" Savage 12 in 223rem with 1:9". It should be on your list of bullets to try, and if it comes out on top, shoot it, if not, then pass. It's a VERY long ogive, so you might not have any issue with your short throat. If it doesn't stabilize, then you have access to the 77SMK, 69SMK, Hornady 77 HPBT, and 73 ELD, 70 & 75 VLD (shorter than the ELD/Amax), or Berger 73 HPBT.

Third: "RMR bullets" and "Benchrest competition" aren't words I would say in the same sentence, unless "don't recommend" are also included. "Cheap" and "benchrest" usually aren't included in the same sentence either, unless "ain't" is also involved... I MIGHT be convinced a guy could use cheap bullets as practice ammo, but you won't likely get sufficient feedback for benchrest practice - how will you know if your group size is caused by your trigger follow through, by your neck tension, or by your bullets? I haven't seen their 68grn listing, but admittedly, I don't pay close enough attention to cheap/pulled bullets to say I'm "familiar" with current offerings. The 73 ELD runs about 19-21cents per bullet, seems like RMR's tend to run something like 12-15cents per bullet. For benchrest shooting, I wouldn't be sweating a nickel per bullet.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

Expect to get your butt kicked - cuz you're going to, and it has nothing to do with you personally or your gear.

This can't be emphasized too much. I've known many people who would like to get into competition shooting, but are always saying: "Well, I need to practice a lot more before I can try it". Don't be afraid of "embarrassing yourself" or some such nonsense. Half the fun is learning and bettering yourself with each match.

When my son wanted to try IPSC, I would load for him and watch every match, but knew I couldn't compete. An old friend of mine (Eddie Rhodes, you may have heard of him) kept insisting i bring my blaster and join them. I did, and I had a lot of fun, despite finishing last almost every time. I decided to try and better myself at every match, and not worry about where I placed. Took a lot of pressure off.

 

[Axis II]

First:

Cast Iron Bald Eagle Rest $200

The Aluminum base model is $140, but I prefer the cast for stability during recoil.

Second: with the 1:9" barrel, you can try the 75 ELD-M, I do fine with it in a 26" Savage 12 in 223rem with 1:9". It should be on your list of bullets to try, and if it comes out on top, shoot it, if not, then pass. It's a VERY long ogive, so you might not have any issue with your short throat. If it doesn't stabilize, then you have access to the 77SMK, 69SMK, Hornady 77 HPBT, and 73 ELD, 70 & 75 VLD (shorter than the ELD/Amax), or Berger 73 HPBT.

Third: "RMR bullets" and "Benchrest competition" aren't words I would say in the same sentence, unless "don't recommend" are also included. "Cheap" and "benchrest" usually aren't included in the same sentence either, unless "ain't" is also involved... I MIGHT be convinced a guy could use cheap bullets as practice ammo, but you won't likely get sufficient feedback for benchrest practice - how will you know if your group size is caused by your trigger follow through, by your neck tension, or by your bullets? I haven't seen their 68grn listing, but admittedly, I don't pay close enough attention to cheap/pulled bullets to say I'm "familiar" with current offerings. The 73 ELD runs about 19-21cents per bullet, seems like RMR's tend to run something like 12-15cents per bullet. For benchrest shooting, I wouldn't be sweating a nickel per bullet.

Again thanks for the info. I'm sure I will have more. lol.

I figured the RMR because they say their inhouse 68/69gr is comparable to the SMK so figured I would ask.

Thanks for the link on the bald eagle rest. I googled it and seen a post for bullets.com but figured it was a forum not a business so I didn't click it.

 

[Axis II]

This can't be emphasized too much. I've known many people who would like to get into competition shooting, but are always saying: "Well, I need to practice a lot more before I can try it". Don't be afraid of "embarrassing yourself" or some such nonsense. Half the fun is learning and bettering yourself with each match.

When my son wanted to try IPSC, I would load for him and watch every match, but knew I couldn't compete. An old friend of mine (Eddie Rhodes, you may have heard of him) kept insisting i bring my blaster and join them. I did, and I had a lot of fun, despite finishing last almost every time. I decided to try and better myself at every match, and not worry about where I placed. Took a lot of pressure off.

I'm trying to get away from that myself. I grew up a jock mostly with baseball and was a pretty good pitcher/catcher and outfield and to say the least if I had stuck with it in high school/college I may have went somewhere but walked away around sophomore year. I did a few pistol shoots at my club but quit going cause they refused to score guys differently that had lasers and halo sights on their pistols. I am competitive and like everyone else don't want to lose. Id be happy with say 20th place out of 30. I like this club has classes for each weapon it makes a little more sense. I'm really to get my behind handed to me and I like figuring things out so if I do get my butt kicked I will have a new adventure as to why and try and to fix it. Oh and it would give me a lot more question to bother all of you guys with!!

 

[Offfhand]

I second the above comments regarding real competition experience vs. practice. Practice of course helps, but one day of actual competition is worth six months of practice. I've been seriously engaged in shooting competitions for over a half century, traveling to several tournaments every year, and every time I compete in a match I learn something.

 

[Gottcha]

If you have good shooting skills. 100yds should be easy with 223, 200 yds takes more concentration than 100 yds but is more than doable wind is not super critical, 300 yds yes wind comes into play more and needs to be accounted for depending on how accurate you want to be. 500 yds with a 223 is hard. With wind it is extremely hard to hit a man size target but doable. Only experience I have is with an AR15 back in 1999 I came within 2 shots of breaking the record at Marine Corps base Camp Pendleton both were at 500 yd line in about 15-20 winds and raining( I would hit left then right of the target)

 

[Axis II]

I just checked and they are using nra mr-63fc "300” yard f-class target

 

[dh1633pm]

I travel a lot for work. When I am in town from Spring to Fall, I make an hour drive once a week to shoot at 300 yards. The group that shoots, shoots for fun mostly and for a little practice. We call it F-class, but it is really a loosely fitted description. My first couple times out I shot a 114 and 126. I seemed to never be able to properly read the wind. Always windy where we shoot. Still can't read the wind worth a darn, but I am a little better at it. Now I routinely shoot 145 or higher.

Did I swap out my equipment, sure did. But not like you would think. Mostly just getting an off the shelf rifle that fits the job better. I also had some luck. So like it was said above, just get out there with what you got and shoot. You can sort it out later. I am not a professional, I don't weight out my brass or check the circumference of each bullet. Primer pockets are "as is". I do check length. No I haven't made a chamber mold. My chosen load was purely accidental. Loaded up 20 quickly just so I could shoot and I stumbled onto a nice load. So who is a pro anyhow? There are good people where I go who answer questions. Sometimes one will even spot for me. If it isn't fun, then why bother.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

I am competitive and like everyone else don't want to lose.

Me too, at least I used to be. When I competed in IHMSA (International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association) I was barely 30, and I went from a complete novice (never even reloaded before) to a AAA Unlimited class shooter in three years. When I was shooting IPSC with my son, I was in my early 50s, and winning had become way less important.

There are good people where I go who answer questions. Sometimes one will even spot for me. If it isn't fun, then why bother.

I've never shot in any competition where the better shooters weren't extremely helpful. Eddie Rhodes was a Grand Master in IPSC and 3 gun, and I was a complete newbie, and he always offered encouragement and support. Same with Sporting Clays and five stand, the better shooters have always been helpful

Same goes with most activities I've been in. I restored my grampa's John Deere AR in the early nineties and started showing it and competing in antique tractor pulls. All the old timers embraced me like I was one of the gang. They gave me tips on hitch height, tuning, etc. to help make me more competitive. I think people in general are friendly and helpful, especially if they are just having fun and competing for ribbons, trophies, and recognition.

 

[Robert]

Go to a match, get your butt kicked and have fun. Talk to the guys at the match. I've never been to a match where folks were not trying to help the new guy out. Match shooters are some of the best folks I have ever met. If I can ever get weekends off I'd love to get back into it.

 

[WestKentucky]

My suggestion is to find somebody familiar with the competitions there at the club. Be a spectator, make friends with the guys competing. Learn from them what level of competition you have, then practice for a while until you are ready. Practice at range, with wind. Call your wind and make the shot, dial your rifle in to the game and get good at it. It’s no fun to jump in feet first and be embarassed because you will be discouraged. Go in strong and enjoy it.

 

[Steve S.]

Back in the early ‘70’s, I attended sniper school (Army); I was a 20 year old “stud” marksman (in my mind) and could out shoot anyone. I then “went to school” and realized that I was a decent shot but there were much better than I (I shot with a Puerto Rican team, both from New York, that were just unbelievably great shooters). I was about average in my class but I came away with a tremendous learning experience that I use to this day. After my young ego got crushed, I then shifted to just learning what I could - I became a better shooter once I got my mind right. If I were you, I would attend a match and learn what you can.

 

[Axis II]

My suggestion is to find somebody familiar with the competitions there at the club. Be a spectator, make friends with the guys competing. Learn from them what level of competition you have, then practice for a while until you are ready. Practice at range, with wind. Call your wind and make the shot, dial your rifle in to the game and get good at it. It’s no fun to jump in feet first and be embarassed because you will be discouraged. Go in strong and enjoy it.

I would love to do this but i'm not a member of this club and their dues are quite high so cant become a member. These shoots are open to the public only on the shoot days so i cant take advantage of their 300yard range.

Pretty much if i show up i either have to be a member or shoot.

 

[HJ857]

There are competitions that aren't precision shooting. You can do NRA High Power Silhouette, which is all offhand shooting from ranges of 200 to 500 meters. Shooting tiny groups from a rested position is a lot less crucial, and you can do it with any rifle. This is not to say that it's easy to do.

https://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/rulebooks/sil-r/sil-r-book.pdf

It shouldn't be too hard to find clubs that are hosting these matches if you have any interest.

 

[Nature Boy]

Don’t worry about winning, losing or getting your butt kicked. At the end of it all you’re really shooting against yourself. Just go and shoot. You’ll have established a base line from that first match and your goal from then on will be to do better than the last time.