308 Bullet for Elk

[Kachok]

Reloading is great, I will never go back to factory ammo. My 6.5x55 has become a whole new wepon with an extra 250fps it went from a very practical deer rifle to a monster dropping, laser flat shooting, DRT legend. I never had to track anything before with my 139gr Prvi SP factory bullets, but now I would not hesetate for a second to use it on our HUGE feral hogs here in the deep south (600 lbs+!) and the best part is that it is still a mild recoiling, mild mannerd, low noise, easy to shoot rifle. There are a few calibers that gain alot from reloading; 25-06, 300mags, 6.5x55, 270WSM and 7mm rem mag are real standouts, they all can gain 150+fps over factory loadings with really good powders/primers (I love RL22). 308s don't gain quite as much in speed as they do accuracy and versitility. If you get the chance to reload I recomend trying Accubonds, they group really well in every rifle I have tried them in and the steller BC of the bullets combined with the rapid expansion and high weight retention makes them a darn near perfect bullet for all around big game use.

 

[1stmarine]

Everything starts and ends with a bullet, hopefully a good one. The rest is just the means of delivery with proper speed, stabilization, scope, not too much coffe that day...etc... LOL!!!
TSX, Nosler, gameking, and many others... hard to go wrong.
The TSX and TTSX is like runniing a huge drill through the animal. I makes a nasty and consistent cavity. They twitch or jump and just roll over. Nothing has scaped those yet. Consistency is the name of the game.
I think many other bullets can say similar stories. Just try several of the above with chronometer in hand and stick with whatever works best for you and your rifle. With a good high BC bullet you can start slow and end up fast so the .308 win, 30.06 good for most hunts in the USA.
If you want long range and extreme long range you have to step up to magnums and dance the long range tango, training being the most important aspect of it.
Cheers,
E.

 

[Kachok]

For long range skip the 308 and get a 7mm rem mag or a 270WSM. Both are great though I am starting to really love my WSM. 308 is just too darn slow for 500 yard hunting IMHO. Not saying that it won't hit your target at that range but you are starting to drop out of the ideal expansion range for most modern bullets.

 

[1stmarine]

In deed 7mm some of the best bullets around.
There are very few things that a 200gr bullet pushed by a .308 win mag. cannot do though. I believe the weatherby and RUM supermagnums are overbored so in that case it is best to take the leap to the .338
I guess it depends on how far you want to go. Long range officially starts at 600 yards.
I have taken deer, goat and mule at 740 yards but didn't try beyond.

Cheers.

 

[tikka-guy]

A long range shot to me is 300 yards

I don't even know where I could shoot paper at 600 yards around here, so I can't see myself making those types of shots anytime soon.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Why does everybody want to TRY and shoot elk at 500 yards and more? It's a whole heck of a lot more fun to hunt them in dark timber at close range.

The 7mm and the .270 WSM are NOT long range elk rifles IMO. They just don't carry enough stuff to pack the mail way out there on a big bull elk. The most effective LONG range elk rifles start in the 8MM or better yet the big .338's.

I have just seen way to many elk wounded and not recovered with the 7mm long range "look ma no brains!" crowd.

I know, I know the guy who wears the lip stick and eye shadow on "Best of the West" does it every week with a 7MM or a even a .264. That's the movies in the real world 99% of guys who try that stuff screw it up. Ever notice that you seldom if ever see those heroes shooting in the wind? Did you also ever notice that you can't dope wind cross canyon for the most part in the mountain because it changes direction and velocity when it enters canyons and blows over ridges?

I'm not saying it can't be done I'm simply saying that most of you guys (us guys) shouldn't be trying it especially with a pip squeak round like a 7MM or a .270 WSM. If you screw the pooch you want something that is going to leave a nice big exit hole and copious amounts of blood on the ground or if it hits heavy bone will punch through anyway. I've seen this game played too many times on elk with neophyte hunters using their deer rifles and trying to sky punt an elk. It almost never turns out good.

My long range elk rig is a .330 Dakota on M-97 action sporting a 26 " barrel and a 2X12 Burris scope. I am shooting a 225 gr Barnes TTSX or a Hornandy IL at 3,000 FPS +. That is a set up and a round where if had the perfect set and the time and the perfect conditions you can ethically take a 500 Yard + shot on an elk. Of course most guys have never fired anything with that level of recoil so you'd better spend some time behind it and get good with it before taking off to kill Samson at eye squinting range or you'll once again find yourself in the goat column of the goat or hero list.

As a guide and as a hunter I am telling that there is nothing more demoralizing than spending all that time and money to come out here elk hunting to live your dream to fantasize about the moment that special moment when you get to slide your rifle over a dead fall pine, place your cross hairs on that big sorrel colored shoulder and squeeze the trigger. Only to have realized a second later that the shot was way to far and that big old bull humps up and runs off with a leg dangling or a hole in his guts. And guess what? An elk can run straight up a mountain for miles with a leg blown off or a hole in his guts and chances are you ain't going to ever see him again.

Don't let this all to common scenario ruin your long awaited dream hunt. Get within reasonable distance (350 yards max) before pulling the trigger on your elk and don't listen to all of these long range internet heroes or coffee shop experts. I've killed over 30 head of elk and only one has been past 400 yards. The majority inside of 200 yards. Super long range shooting is never necessary with elk you can do it if you want but you can also choose to pass up those shots and work yourself into a better position and a sure deal.

Sorry for the long post but I feel fairly strongly about this subject.

 

[ZeroJunk]

I have never shot an elk at more than 200 yards. But, I would take a shot at maybe 400 if it was all I could get and I could find a good rest, provided the wind was calm. Of course, the wind being calm almost never happens. Five hundred yards is a little much.

 

[dougwx12]

A 150 TSX should work just fine, and shoot the same as your existing deer loads.

 

[tikka-guy]

As a guide and as a hunter I am telling that there is nothing more demoralizing than spending all that time and money to come out here elk hunting to live your dream to fantasize about the moment that special moment when you get to slide your rifle over a dead fall pine, place your cross hairs on that big sorrel colored shoulder and squeeze the trigger. Only to have realized a second later that the shot was way to far and that big old bull humps up and runs off with a leg dangling or a hole in his guts. And guess what? An elk can run straight up a mountain for miles with a leg blown off or a hole in his guts and chances are you ain't going to ever see him again.

That situation is the last thing I want, and hence why I asked this question. I can't comment on the specific calibers you mentioned, because I frankly don't know much about long distance hunting, especially for elk. I do most of my hunting in the middle of the woods, where it's tough to get even a 100 yard shot. Rest assured that I won't be taking any shots farther than 300 yards, and even at 300 yards I need to get in some significant range time between now and then. I've hunted mulies and antelope in WY several times, so I'm capable of taking some long (by my standards) shots, but elk is in a different league.

Super long range shooting is never necessary with elk you can do it if you want but you can also choose to pass up those shots and work yourself into a better position and a sure deal

That's good to hear. That is my preferred method to be honest. I enjoy the strategy involved in gaining a better position before taking a shot. It's why I love hunting in WY so much. It's difficult to do that with whitetails where I hunt.

This is my first guided hunt. I hadn't thought about it before, but I think I'm a bit apprehensive about that. I guess I have to keep in mind that this is MY hunt, and if the guide says shoot and I don't think I can, then I don't take the shot. Something I haven't had to do in the past.

 

[1stmarine]

H&Hhunter,
Wise words. When I heard folks looking for long range I recommend preparing a big budget and advice that 1 out of a 10 hunts where the average range is 100-200 yards anyway they might be presented with just one opportunity to take a long shot and they will have to learn to let it go and move closer.
The most important single aspect of the equation is not the rifle, nor the ammunition, nor the gear (expensive too) nor the shooter but the training and the experience hunting.

Years of training can only provide the confidence to take a long shot and then, and learning with the best sometimes, even then, you might have to let it go if you know how to read the wind, and it looks that you know how to.
I don't see any 4 engine aircraft pilot certification of 4000 hours flying given in a 4hrs certification.

Those that are the real hunters, the ones that when everybody is saying take the shot, they open the action and say NO, lets move closer.

Don't fear for the poor elk as most of the guys talking long range online will not even touch them in the gut or the quarters. I do long range hunting because is something I got trained for by the military. Would I go and start shooting everything that moves at long range? Absolutely not! If there is one single doubt in my mind that I am not going to hit the target I don't take the shot. I have missed in the past, yes... but only in training and with paper and steel targets.

Cheers,
e.

 

[Kachok]

I do not agree that the 7mm rem or 270WSM is not enough to drop an elk with at long range. I do agree that 90+% of all hunters are not a good enough shot to take anything past 400 yards no matter what the caliber. My 7mm rem and 270 WSM carry well over the 1200 ft lbs recomended at 500 yards (about 1600 with my handloads) Even my mild 6.5x55 carries 1300+ @500, not that I would cut it that close no matter how good a shot I am.

 

[1stmarine]

I agree, nothing wrong with a 175gr 7mm bullet in expert hands but I think the In 7mm the assortment is not so wide but we have very good bullets in some of those models mentioned before.
.308 is what is wanted here.

Cheers.
E.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I do not agree that the 7mm rem or 270WSM is not enough to drop an elk with at long range.

Kachok,
Of course they will. But they reduce your margin for error as they are the extreme minimum of what you should be using for that application on elk. What aggravates me about the 7MM crowd is they tend to be the guys who either trade in grand pappy's .30-06 or the new guy who reads a lot and wants a "long range" rifle. They go buy a fancy new 7MM and think that they can magically shoot at any range and that somehow if the round connects it will instantly blow any and all animals off their feet due the all powerful energy aura created by the mythical 7MM round.

There seem to be two types of 7MM shooters. Bubbas and riflemen and the bubbas outnumber the riflemen about 10 to 1. When I was guiding on a regular basis I always cringed when a client would start "informing" me about the virtues of his new 7MM on the way up the hill. It was almost always a fiasco with those guys. There are still to this day plenty of old time guides in elk country who will not allow a 7MM in camp. Back in the day the 7MM developed a reputation as being wounding cartridge and it has stuck. Heck I have a buddy who hunted the Jicarilla Apache reservation for elk last year. Guess what, they wouldn't allow him to use his 7MM on his elk hunt they've had to many wounded elk with that round.

1st Marine has it right, a 175 gr bullet in expert hands is decent elk medicine. The problem is neophytes always want more speed and use soft 140 gr deer bullets falsely thinking that the additional MV adds up to better long range performance. We all know that the 175 is the round that carries the mail down range but try convincing Mr. 7MM velocity freak of that little ditty.

As 1st Marine also said it's a lot less about the machine and a lot more about the mans training.

 

[Kachok]

Know your game, know your rifle, know your bullet, and know your aim. My cousin failed to dorp a 120lbs whitetail with a 30-06 at close range. He did blow a leg off it. That does not make the 06 a poor choice for deer it just makes him a bad shot (from a stabe rest no less). Those of us that understand the use of proper bullets, and understand that proper shot placement trumps power everytime don't need huge cannons. I leave my magnums at home 90+% of the time because I am deadly accurate with my "puney" 6.5x55 and it has never let me down. I could not imagine someone NOT putting an elk down with somthing as powerful as a 7mm rem mag unless they were as bad of a shot as my cousin. I find it intresting that just a genaration ago the 30-30, 6.5x55, 30-06, and 270 win were go to rifles for elk now we all need 338 win mags. Have they grown armor or are we just becoming really poor hunters?
The 257 Roberts used to be a good deer rifle, but I guess they grew armor too. Seems like the 270 is the minimum caliber now. Someone needs to tell my dad because he still hunts with a 243! LOL dad can still pop turtle heads in the middle of the lake with his model 70, putting a 100gr corelock through a deers heart is a chip shot, and it still kills them just as dead as it did 40 years ago.

 

[1stmarine]

Nothing wrong with the .243 win neither, or a good 6.5mm load.
30.06 and 308WIN are also some of the most versatile loads ever devised for the average American hunter. So one could say if you have any of those calibers rarely will need anything else but we like our toys and we have to get at least a couple of them so we can enjoy exchanging our experiences with family and friends that are also firearm enthusiasts.

I could hunt all day with a .224 if they allowed everywhere or a .243 TSX bullet that has been proven the devastation at moderate ranges no matter what grain and caliber. Just like nosler, SGK, corelockts, ...you call it.

Not long ago people hunted with black powder lever action thumpers that delivered 700ft/lbs at 100 yards and filled out the dinner table with meat and potatos for decades.
Now some think that other popular loadings like our veteran grandpa 30'06 is not enough for anything walking in this continent? No sense. People that know hunting and firearms know better than that.

I guess we can call that hunter killing a deer at 250 yards with the 243 win a small surgical kill (Dead anyway) and the guy with the .338 RUM missing the same target at the same range a huge messy miss.

We know a .308 or .338 RUM can do much more specially at extreme long range but that alone cannot do squad and it is the less important thing of the whole equation "to deliver the mail". (I like that expression from you)

I have several friends and cousins just like yours, I encourage them to go play with air rifles/22LR and paper targets. It is plenty for the type of fulfillment they are looking for.

LOL.

 

[Kachok]

I would encourage anyone to learn to shoot by practicing on much smaller targets, I learned by cleaning out our nusence turtle population many years ago with a 22LR. If you can consistantly hit a 1"-2" target at 50-100 yards from a boat you are more then ready to take on deer. My friend Bryan is a 300 mag fanatic, he always talks smack about my little 6.5x55, yet both times I have managed to drag him to the shooting range he is all over the place, somtimes not even keeping his shots on the 12"x12" paper at 100 yards off a benchrest! Needless to say I don't take him hunting with me. "hunters" like that could give a 375H&H a bad name, the poor 7mm rem mag don't stand a chance LOL

 

[ZeroJunk]

I am a little curious why a 7 Remington magnum is thrown in to the bubba group. I guess because it has a belt. In reality it doesn't recoil any worse than a 30-06 as I can feel.

This anti-magnum stuff is just so in style.

 

[1stmarine]

No anti magnum or anti nothing. It was just used as an example, to compare little vs. big. It is a great casing like many others. Just totally unnecessary at the average range but great for other purposes that's all.
Sorry for any confusion on my part.
Cheers,
E.

 

[Kachok]

I think it just has more to do with the fact that the hype surounding the 7mag lured many inexperneced shooters to buy them. The old guys know their old 06 is more then enough so they were not the first in line to get on the magnum bandwagon. More of a phsycological thing then a ballistic thing IMHO.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I think it just has more to do with the fact that the hype surounding the 7mag lured many inexperneced shooters to buy them. The old guys know their old 06 is more then enough so they were not the first in line to get on the magnum bandwagon. More of a phsycological thing then a ballistic thing IMHO.

BINGO! Kachok hit it right on the head.

In some circles the 7MM has developed a horrible yet undeserved reputation.

Lets break down what a 7MM really gives you over the plain old .30-06. I'll let you guys go grab your own reloading manuals and ballistics charts. But I'll summarize with comparable SD and BC the 7MM gives you a bit flatter trajectory hits with about the same energy and does so with a bullet that has slightly less frontal area and diameter.

So what you actually gain with a 7MM over a .30-06 is about 50 yards more maximum point blank range with no discernible increase in killing power.

Now here's the rub many enthusiastic yet inexperienced guys buy into the hype, go get a 7MM and have an inflated and overly confident opinion of what it is capable of, then try to make these ultra long shots on elk missing or wounding. There tends to be a bad case of over confidence associated to the 7MM and so many hunters.

Meanwhile you get the old timers shooting old reliable in a .270 or an 06 or a .257 Bob, whatever, who simply don't take shots that they aren't sure about making and they tend to cleanly kill way elk than the your average once a year bubba with all the cool tools on his back.

It reminds me of Eric Hartman The top scoring fighter ace of WWII with 352 enemy kills. He was asked once what his secret was to being such a fine aerial marksman. His reply was that he wasn't good shot at all he simply never pulled the trigger unless he was close enough to assure a kill. In his book he stated that he like to close to within 50 meters before he would fire on his enemy. So much like a very good hunter, shooting was secondary to his expert maneuvering and stalking skills.

As Col Jeff Cooper said if you can get closer, GET closer, if you can get more steady, GET more steady.

If a guy wants to put in the time and training to get to where he knows how to shoot long range and he has the knowledge when to pull the trigger and when to let it pass I have no problem with that at all. Go for it, but know when to say when. Most hunters do not have the discipline or experience to know when to not pull the trigger.

Experience comes from bad judgment but you let be the other guys bad judgment and learn from their mistakes. I pulled an amateur boneheaded mistake last year during deer season. It happens!


PS

Now that I am thinking about it the longest range one shot kill I've ever seen on an elk was in 1982 or 1983 up in the Rio Costillo. Long before Range finders were available to the general public. It was my hunting mentor Bob Ward (RIP buddy) shooting his beloved .270 Weatherby and a 150 gr Partition. He had one of those old Redfield wide views with the stadia ranging lines in it. I need to go back to the spot and laser it, but the lines told him to hold for 600 yards and he killed a big dry cow with the first shot. I've seen him make several other one shot kills at beyond 500 yards with that old rifle too.

Bob was an artist with his .270 Roy and had taken two grand slams with it. Killed moose and grizz with it, had hunted just about everything there was to hunt in Africa with it including a huge Bongo back in 1984. It goes back to time and familiarity with the rifle. Bob had been a PH in Rhodesia and I know had operated with the militia during the war. Whether or not he did any long range rifle training with the Rhodesian military is now lost to history but I'd guess that he did. He knew quite a bit about long range shooting, wind doping, mirage, positions, breath control, ranging, ETC.

 

[shaggy430]

I thought this thread was about .308 bullets for elk?

 

[1stmarine]

H&Hhunter
Here is a ballistics chart I pulled with my data and formulas comparing the .30.06 with 7mmRM.
To be fair I used the best bullets in each caliber from the same maker and model in this case BARNES TTSX. Both great meat getters.
If one knows how to manage the higher parabola the 30.06 retains more energy past the 200 yards and bucks the wind better.
For flatter shooting the 7mm is a great round.

I agree with shaggy430
There is good information about .308 but we can also discuss other things that might be educational for everyone.
You can take the Elk with confidence with this .308 round.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Like I said the 7MM has about 50 yards further Maximum point plank range. Thanks for posting that it graphically shows what I'm talking about. The whole point is most guys shouldn't be shooting past 300 yards on game so it's simply a case of preoccupation with inconsequential increments beyond that number.

1stMArine I am assuming that you are comparing a 160gr 7MM to a 200 gr .30-06? It would be helpful for everybody if you'd include that and the S.D. and the B.C. of both bullets.

Moving back to the OP your .308 will be fine just don't push your range beyond what you are comfortable with.

Most folks don't have any idea what maximum point blank range actually means. This is a good explanation, my apologies to you folks who are well versed in ballistics terminology.

http://www.rmvh.com/MPBR.htm

 

[1stmarine]

H&H hunter. Wise words.
The values are in the header of the chart.
I selected the rows here.. I also added another chart with the new Hornady's superperformance Ammo and their A-max 178gr using their published data. This has not been verified. I was going to go today to get a few pounds of this magic stuff but I couldn't so I will go tomorrow and start preparing a few loads for the weekend if the weather cooperates. I love hornady's stuff but also got many primers blown off with their match brand new loads. Some like it hot!
Anyway the superperformance load below even if only used for a hot hunting round is also pretty flat.

Of course the 7mm can benefit from the Hornady's new good stuff too but I don't see the point. IMHO with both the venerable 30.06 and .308Win you have mo powa that you need at average/moderate ranges for elk unless you want to kill 3 cows in a row.

This is a new system that I am working on this weekend if the weather cooperates and in case anyone is interested in info about a nice .308win...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=586536

Cheers,
E.

 

[bpl]

.308 bullets for elk...

I'd use the following:

165gr or 180gr bonded bullet or monolithic (TSX, GMX, etc.)

Nosler Partition or Accubond
Hornady Interbond or GMX
Barnes TSX or TTSX
Trophy bonded bear claw
Swift A-Frame

With my 30-06, I'd personally go with a 180gr bonded or 165gr monolithic solid. With that .308, I'd take a hard look at the GMX or TSX/TTSX in 165/168gr.