.308 Federal Power shock failure on deer.

[GuyWithGun]

Hello all,

I have a Remington 7600 that started life as a .308 Win, but after test firing it to make sure it worked I had it rebored into a .358 Win which was my plan when I bought it.. Shot an elk and a whitetail with it, didn’t do anything I thought a .308 wouldn’t do, plus factory barrel wasn’t good and never grouped well with either caliber. With that, had it rebarrelled back into a .308. Shooting just a touch over MOA now with a peep sight, was pretty stoked about hunting with it this year.

Shot a biggish for the black hills whitetail buck (probably 180 pounds on the hoof) yesterday with a 180gr Federal Power Shock at about 40 yards heavily quartering to me. Held and hit in the point of his near shoulder, Hit looked good and the deer staggered with the shot and ran off about 60 yards with an obviously broken leg and laid down, followed quickly by laying his head down. Assuming he was dead, I took my time getting down to him and was trying to find a blood trail just for practice. Saw a bit of hair, but no blood. Thought that was weird, but didn’t think not having an exit wound with that shot was all that strange, so I started foot tracking him waiting to find blood. After about 30 yards and still no blood, the buck jumped up looking surprisingly healthy, bounded about 4 steps and stipped with his rump to me. He looked sick once he stopped, but wasn’t going down. I’ve seen this before and it doesn’t go well so I decided if I needed to pull a Texas heart shot to put him down then it was better than spending the next 5-6 hours foot tracking this thing so I pulled the best shot I could and squeezed it off. Very clearly hit the deer hard, but again did not go down. Next shot same thing, but went down on the one after which looked like a spine shot. Had to load a 5th round to finish him, but at least he was finally dead. When I cleaned him, the first bullet in the shoulder completely blew apart and had what looked like fragments entering the chest cavity in a pattern about 3 inches long and between two ribs. Similar finding on what turned out to be a hip shot, an upper leg shot, and a low spine shot with none of them penetrating well past the bone impact.

I was shooting heavy for caliber bullets for this exact scenario and was very disappointed in the results. Going to copper bullets now because I don’t want that to happen again with not killing the deer, but destroying a lot of meat and filling what is left with lead fragments. Have already decided to change bullets, so not looking for advice really, just curious to see if anybody else had this experience with that ammo.

Thanks.

 

[.38 Special]

Thank you for the report. I have no experience with that bullet. I imagine on a "tight behind the shoulder" shot it would have been flawless. Those quartering shots are tough on bullets, and your plan regarding copper monolithics is a good one. "Premium" bullets, like the Partition, A-frame, etc. should also do the job. Good luck!

 

[JmacD]

I have had almost identical performance with that exact setup, except a bolt gun. I also shot one with that exact shot scenario later in the season, but it was a 270 win with a good and proven hand load with a 130 grain Sierra… it was like an off switch… bullet came apart more than I prefer, but left the shoulder in bad shape and turned lungs to nothing useful. Most of the power shock stuff I have has turned to blasting fodder, and brass is in its second life with the bullet I want… fwiw, I’ve never had an interlock do that.

 

[jdsingleshot]

IMO, This is just another case of taking a shot that should have been passed up and expecting the bullet to magically make it OK. I killed a whitetail at about that distance with a .25-20 WCF. Deer went about 50 yards and dropped.

Put the bullet where it counts or don't shoot.

 

[jmr40]

I wouldn't say for sure it was a bullet failure until/if I could recover the deer. Shot placement may have not been as good as you thought.

And some deer are just tougher than others. I've seen deer run over 100 yards and show no indication of being hit until they suddenly stopped running and fell over dead. Shot placement and bullet performance were excellent. They just didn't want to lie down and die.

 

[marksman13]

IMO, This is just another case of taking a shot that should have been passed up and expecting the bullet to magically make it OK. I killed a whitetail at about that distance with a .25-20 WCF. Deer went about 50 yards and dropped.

Put the bullet where it counts or don't shoot.

So, you would pass on any quartering toward shot? Weird stance to take, but it’s your life.

 

[.38 Special]

Honestly, I think the quartering shot is quite possibly the best one available, assuming your cartridge and bullet are up to it. It is possible to do incredible "DRT" damage from that angle.

Of course it also is possible to completely overwhelm your cartridge and/or bullet and so end up with the kind of mess the OP describes - which is why I lean toward "too much gun" and "too much bullet" just on general principal.

 

[earlthegoat2]

IMO, 180 gr is not heavy for 358 caliber. Maybe heavy for 358 Winchester as opposed to 35 Whelen. IMO, 200 gr is standard for caliber and 225+ is heavy. Either way it is a heavy enough bullet for the intended purpose with the 358 Winchester cartridge.

Nonetheless, the results do seem to indicate some premature bullet fragmentation and that should have been plenty to knock down a whitetail even with cup and core bullets. 180 gr monolithics will perform much better.

 

[Chuck R.]

IMO, 180 gr is not heavy for 358 caliber. Maybe heavy for 358 Winchester as opposed to 35 Whelen. IMO, 200 gr is standard for caliber and 225+ is heavy. Either way it is a heavy enough bullet for the intended purpose with the 358 Winchester cartridge.

Nonetheless, the results do seem to indicate some premature bullet fragmentation and that should have been plenty to knock down a whitetail even with cup and core bullets. 180 gr monolithics will perform much better.

I think he shot it with a .308 180 grn, that was rebarreled and previously a .358 Win.

But I agree, the .358's start at 180grn, which is what I'm working with now in my .358Win. In my 350RM I prefer 225s.

Last year I started using the Hornady 200SP at 2830FPS, not a lot of testing, but I did shoot a quartering doe at about 80 yards and got a complete pass though, about 32" of deer penetration. I also shot a decent sized sow, through the shoulder, neck bones and exiting through the off shoulder. Needless to say, I'm pretty impressed with the Hornady 200SP.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I think he shot it with a .308 180 grn, that was rebarreled and previously a .358 Win.

Right you are. Missed all the rebarrellings that occurred.

180 is in fact heavy for caliber for .308 and even a cup and core should have done a better job.

I have had excellent luck with 180 gr power shok with the 300 Win Mag. I am unsure if it is the same bullet or not though. I would hope not given the pretty extreme velocity differences but I do believe the same bullets would be used between 308 and 30-06.

 

[Laphroaig]

180 is in fact heavy for caliber for .308 and even a cup and core should have done a better job.

I agree. I've had/seen/heard about bullets fragmenting with high velocity cup and core bullets at close ranges. Happened to my dad once in his .308 with a 125 gr. Sierra PH. My theory is that at some point you get enough critical mass with heavy for caliber bullets that they don't "blow up". A 180 in a .308 should be there.

My 25-06 was especially susceptible to that. I switched to 120 Nosler Partitions with good results.

 

[jdsingleshot]

IMO, This is just another case of taking a shot that should have been passed up and expecting the bullet to magically make it OK. I killed a whitetail at about that distance with a .25-20 WCF. Deer went about 50 yards and dropped.

Put the bullet where it counts or don't shoot.

So, you would pass on any quartering toward shot? Weird stance to take, but it’s your life.

I didn't read the OP well enough, but hard quartering shots are going to hit a lot of bone. I'd probably take the shot, but would not blame the bullet for bad results.

 

[GuyWithGun]

.38spl,

Agree, is what I thought I was doing with stepping up to a 180gr in a .308. Only has a 20” barrel too, so not like it’s exceeding advertised muzzle velocities or anything. I got it specifically for stalking and tracking expecting close, fast shots at less than optimal angles. In it’s .358 Win incarnation I was a little under-whelmed with the penetration I got on an elk, but was using a 187gr TTSX (only thing the silly gun would shoot decent at any range). Blew through the whitetail I killed with it with standard Hornady Custom 200gr soft point, but actually didn’t really expand much- exit hole wasn’t much bigger than entrance. Figured could do just as well with it going back too .308 when upgraded barrel and have cheaper/easier to find ammo to boot.

I’ve never been a big fan of “premium” bullets because, up until this experience, I never felt I needed them. One of my rules has always been “If I can’t kill it with a 180gr 30-06 Corlokt I probably shouldn’t be shooting at whatever it is.” This gun liked the Federal blue box better than the old green and yellow standby and ain’t a nickle’s difference in a .30-06 and .308 for what I’m using it for, so never questioned it doing what it needed to do on a whitetail under any circumstance. It never in a million years would have crossed my mind that bullet in that gun would not have blown through that buck like he wasn’t there. Have broke both shoulders on a few deer with an old .35 Rem with 200gr Corlokts so figured .308 was comparatively Thor’s hammer, but in retrospect those were usually some flavor of broadside shots. Have made that quartering too shot with .270 green box 130gr a few times with zero issues, what I had here should have worked even better… in theory.

Back to your point, if going for Plan B performance for what happens in the deer woods, your point is well taken. This may be a one off for that brand/loading, but sounds like there are enough cup and core failures of all types/calibers under similar circumstances to think this will happen again over enough repetitions, might as well just plan for that and get too much bullet to go with my too much gun.


All,

Thanks for the replies. Have a safe and productive rut.

 

[Kevinq6]

One lesson I have learned the hard way is when you hit bone you really can damage a lot of meat. Hitting a large bone like the shoulders you threaten the meat in the front limbs, and depending on the angle, a lot of the steaks in the upper back as well. The bullets can turn the bone into fragment grenades. Yes, I should have listened to the other hunters!

There's pros/cons to using a soft bullet, on a lung shot the soft bullet will provide crazy damage. Your experience is still surprising, my friend has had decent penetration with 150gr power points in his .c08 though most of the bone that was hit was a leg bone on a well placed shot.

I am using 130gr copper in my .308. Have only shot a 181lb pig with it so far but it performed as advertised. I like to be careful with shot placement, not damage too much meat and have good penetration.

One thing that made me switch to it is I found a chunk of a jacket fragment with lead on it while eating sausage. I don't want to worry about that.

 

[Chuck R.]

So, you would pass on any quartering toward shot? Weird stance to take, but it’s your life.

I didn't read the OP well enough, but hard quartering shots are going to hit a lot of bone. I'd probably take the shot, but would not blame the bullet for bad results.

I'd take the shot too.

It's part of the reason I've gone to my 350RM and the new .358Win when I think the shots are going to be close. Drop the velocity down some and not end up with as much bloodshot meat.

I've used Nolser Partitions and ABs, both do some serious damage when hitting bone. The Partition is designed to have the front section expand rapidly and dump energy.

There's no free lunch, it's a lot to ask of a bullet to expand and penetrate, but not fragment when hitting heavy bone.

I like HV rounds when I need distance and to buck wind, but don't like them for under 100 unless it's a food plot or feeder when I have time and can pick my shot.

 

[BreechFace]

Thanks for sharing. Interesting on your experience with the 180gr Federal, I've seen one whitetail taken with it and it performed well, good expansion and caught on offside hide on one instance.

Deer heavily quartering towards me gets a bullet to the neck just below the jaw. Lots of plumbing in that area and if it travels straightline into the high shoulder CNS area, as it typically will, it's lights out.

Like @Chuck R, I've upped my caliber when close shots <150 yards are expected, they just seem to work better when distance and wind are not a concern.

 

[WisBorn]

The only Power Shock bullets I have used was in a 30-30 150 grain with good results. Sorry to hear about your experience.

 

[Hookeye]

Running a .308 win tomorrow.
150 Deer Seaspon XP.
Treestands, close in thicket.
This could get interesting.
Try double lunging, with maybe offside shoulder hit.
If coming in near onside shoulder will slam the pocket between that and neck.

I'll probably just being doing a squirrel inventory.

Got no problem with going to premium bullet next yr (if need to).

 

[JFrank]

I don’t get big blood trails using those soft tip bullets, so I switched to SST from Hornday and that one just went right through and didn’t leave much blood either. Wondering w t heck’ I while skinning I realized my bullet went too far back behind the shoulder.

 

[Thomasss]

Sounds like to me you had several bad shots. Don't blame the bullet. It did what it was made to do, Those fragments should have perforated the lungs and that would put any deer down fast. No air, no run. Quartering shots can be tricky for the shooter and for bullet effectiveness. If you took the same shot with an all copper bullet I don't think the results would be any better. You are talking about a bullet that is made to fragment on one hand and now you plan on one that doesn't frag at all. Why not try something in between, like a partition or a gilded lead bullet. Nosler Partition are nice and so are Core-Lokts or Interlocks. You could shoot some in a test box of wet newspaper and plywood and note the difference between different bullet types.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

I have had almost identical performance with that exact setup, except a bolt gun. I also shot one with that exact shot scenario later in the season, but it was a 270 win with a good and proven hand load with a 130 grain Sierra… it was like an off switch… bullet came apart more than I prefer, but left the shoulder in bad shape and turned lungs to nothing useful. Most of the power shock stuff I have has turned to blasting fodder, and brass is in its second life with the bullet I want… fwiw, I’ve never had an interlock do that.

Hmmmmmm.... Very interesting..... *Puts on tin foil hat* ok, now is this just a Hornady marketing thread? Lol I kid, I think I will start buying some more Hornady bullets instead of Berger or Barnes. I do like the Red H bullets a lot, shoot good enough for government work. That's about the only Hornady thing I like lol.

 

[Kingcreek]

I’ve never had a problem with the cup and core bullets like the Remington core-lok at .308 velocities. I had a sierra game king explode from a .300wm and switched to nosler partitions.

 

[Gun-Reck]

While some might swear by them, when it comes to Federal Blue Box, am more than likely to swear at them.

PPU SP when it was inexpensive and available is better, as is the inexpensive Norma or comparable Remington Core-Lokt.

Like their Premium offerings though, a lot.

 

[tdbmd]

Strongly quartering towards you and shot on the point of the near shoulder?
Maybe didn't make it into the vitals with that angle, just broke the shoulder as noted. And at 40 yards the impact velocity is high.

 

[nvcdl]

The last couple deer I shot with 308 Fed 150 softpoints. One was out about 110 yards & front quartering about 40 degrees and feeding with neck down. Went down like a bag of potatoes. Had some eye twitching and movement that I thought were nerves. Went to get truck and when I came back 10 minutes later the bucks head was popping up and swiveling around. Ended up shooting him in the neck with a 40s&w to put him down. On this one I think the bullet hit the spine while the deer was feeding and didn't penetrate deeper into the vitals.

The next buck I shot was on the move from right to left at about 80 yards. Was walking briskly so I led it a bit and ended up hitting him a bit forward of shoulder - did not find an exit wound. Again he dropped in his tracks and when I walked up to him he was still breathing and showing life so I shot him in the neck to finish him off. Turned out to be best buck I've shot - 20.5" inside 11 points. Think this was similar to the other shot in that it must have taken out spine.

The 150gr softpoints seem to be designed to cause massive internal damage on thin skinned big game but not optimal for penetration. I'm debating going with a more controlled expansion bullet but on the fence as my rifle really shoots these 150gr loads well. I suspect that my spine shots were very effective as the bullets create a large wound channel. I want quick kills as i don't want the deer to run off the field onto other peoples property.