.308 or .223?

[jahwarrior]

i was at gander mountain, browsing for my next piece. i decided to look at some of the "evil" looking assualt rifles , thinking ahead to tax time. i noticed that some were for .223/5.56, and some were for .308, which i'm unfamiliar with. the only rifles i have any practical know-how with are lever action .30-06s. i asked the salesman the difference between the .223, 5.56 amd .308 rounds; he said that the first 2 were standard rounds for LEO/military/civilian use, while the .308 was more for hunting big game, like elk and such. to quuote him:"the .223 while leave a nice little hole in a guy, but the .308 while put a hole ya can out yer fist through." he also claimed the recoil for the .308 was a lot stronger than the NATO rounds. call me crazy, but a take anything a salesman tells me with a grain of salt. anyone here ccare to shed some light?

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Well, that's kind of a wide open question. I would start with these three articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56_×_45_mm_NATO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester

As far as the usefulness against people vs. capacity/recoil/etc., that is one of the ongoing debates in the gun world.

Unless you need the extra power and range of a .308 for something specific, I would find hard to justify the extra expense in rifle/ammo/magazines to get one over getting a rifle in 5.56.

And good job not believing everything the sales guy had to say.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

the only rifles i have any practical know-how with are lever action .30-06s???

Can you elaborate on this? Did you mean .30-30 maybe? Just asking.

 

[YodaVader]

The .308 has seen plenty of use as a military and law enforcement round although he is right about some of the big game use as well. As far as hunting the .223 is more likely to used as a varmint cartridge.

I have owned both in bolt action rifles and finally settled on the .223.

 

[rsracer65]

I have both in bolt guns (Remmy 700's) and both in AR style rifles (DPMS LR-308 and RRA NM .223) We cannot hunt deer with the .223 up here so my .223 stuff is more for fun. For a hunting gun the .308 caliber is more versatile but then again if you only varmint hunt the .308 does you no good. The AR's have a manageable amount of recoil as do the bolt guns in these calibers, the .308 is noticeably harder hitting in both styles of guns. I put a VAIS muzzlebrake on my .308 bolt gun and the recoil is now nil so it depends on what you are looking for in the end.

Sorry for the rambling, just my .02

I would love to get a salesman like that in front of me, I always get the older gentlemen that actually know what they are talking about when I am at the gun stores...

Adam

 

[Werewolf]

.223 (almost 5.56 NATO) and .308 (7.62X51 NATO) have been in use by NATO forces for nigh unto 40 years.

Both are fun and very practical cartridges. .223 is especially economical as a plinking and target shooting round. In addition, in the right rifle it is one of the more popular varmint cartridges. The .308 is also good for both but is more expensive to use whether handloaded or purchased commercially. The .308's external ballistics are almost (but not quite) identical to those of the 30-06 and for 99% of all applications can be considered the same by most shooters.

Both cartridges can be had via military surplus relatively inexpensively. It should be noted that one should not use a 5.56 in a .223 chamber. (there are a number of threads here with some excellent links regarding this - SAAMI says it is OK to shoot 223 in 5.56 spec chamber but not vice versa). SAAMI states .308 and 7.62X51 are interchangeable.

 

[jonboynumba1]

From a sporting perspective .223 is a varmint round (actually a fairly light one) though the velocity is impressive considering it's small size and case capacity. .308 is an excellent and efficient deer round usually loaded with a 150gr SP. Much like 7 mag...people like to redline handloads for some reason. I use a starting load of 43gr of H4895 in my loads and it's super accurate in most rifles seated to crimp groove of a 150gr FMJ. This is more inline with the chamber presures of the 7.62 NATO and just plain are easier on guns and more accurate than hot loads generally IMHO. Some folks use .308 on elk but like .270 most people will say it's on the light side -but with the right bullet and shot discipline in place it certainly will work within reasonable limits. It's not what most people would call an "Elk Round" though. -That makes me think of .300 winmag and most specifically the .338 winmag...which to me is the perfect elk/moose round if one was to have a specific rifle just for that. The .30-06 with heavier bullets of the right construction is generally considered the sound low end starting point for those type of critters. .308 can use a little more room and doesn't tend to be loaded with anything heavier than a 170gr for some reason (case capacity being most likely if you swap to heavy bullets and slower powders the 06' just does it better/easier)...the .300 WM better still.

As a varmint round I like .243 win better than .223...just seems more solid when it comes to larger yotes ect. But people do like their .223's as well...just prefference I guess. As a police round the .223 with a SP,HP or BT bullet does a lot of what .243 does in a lighter smaller round that is easier to fit in a handy semi-auto carbines. It also has less over-penetration than .308's do in many real world police type shooting situations (70 yards or less being average SWAT team shot distances) There to...prefferences and opinions abound. Military snipers use .308 and all kinds of other rounds from .338 wildcats to .50 BMG I doubt the averaage .308 round will "leave a fist sized hole through a man" as the gunstore commando stated. Though Hornady Tap ammo (which is popular) is basically a varmint round in .308 and it does generally go in and make a mess with minamal over-penetration while still having enough solid penetration and more power with less wind drift on longer shots than a .223. At 70 yards or even 150 I doubt it matters much which they use in most situations. Neither one in any TAP load would a good deer round make. If I was in charge of the world they'd propbably be shooting a .243 in a bolt action and there would be a lot less AR's fielded by people that didn't need and or where not really trained on their use and implementation. But COPS like cool looking guns and gear to....so I guess you can't blame the militarized culture we see today...especially since many are ex millitary and are comfortable with that platform already. I guess you can argue it either way.

.223's millitary counterpart 5.56 NATO is basically the same thing with slightly higher (and tighter) guidline on chamber presure. Generally M855 is the current designation for US 5.56 ammo and specifies a certain powder grade chamber presure velocity range ect. It has a 62gr FMJ bullet with a lead core and steel kicker some people call "penetrator". I'm note sure if it's main purpose is to actually act as such as it is NOT really AP ammo. I'm guessing it has more to do with center of gravity and helping the bullet stabalize quickly even in shorter carbines like the M4 (14.5" bbl) I'm sure somebody else can enlighten us there...I've shot a LOT of it but never bothered to ask...ball is for fun and SP/BT is for varmints and deffensive use to me. 5.56 does shoot beter in my AR's with NATO spec chambers on average than .223's. The main difference between nato 5.56 (SS109) and M855 5.56 is we like our ammo a little hotter and with very tight controls on chamber preseure. Reason being .223 and especially 5.56 run at the upper end of chamber presures for non-belted cases. We like it hotter still because it makes our M-4's with shorter gas systems more reliable and helps make up for the shorter bbl's. Millitary rifles are generally throated and chambered looser to help keep chamber presure down anyway. In a tight toloerance sporting gun it might just be a lot higher than is a good idea...then again in many rifles it may no...that is why people get into whether or not you should interchange them in a given firearm type arguments all the time. Generally you can shoot .223 in a 5.56 but it's "less safe" the other way around...in some cases maybe "unsafe"

It runs about the same with .308 and 7.62 NATO except that NATO 7.62 specifies a LOWER chamber presure than .308 winchester...millitary brass is also generally heavier with slightly lower case capacity which actually just makes it more ideal for those loads and rifles. So I guess it's closer to backwards for the .308. You can have longer seated bullets sometimes in 7.62 than average factory .308 but it usually is a non-issue unless you get some bizare import stuff...which is always a good idea to stay away from anyway in any caliber in my opinion. Some semi-auto rifles in 7.62 may not like some factory loads in .308 since their gas systems are build for a general power-curve of a less powerful load. Certain types of import 7.62 have reputations as being hot and "blowing up guns" (usually M1A's for some reason). I've fires many cases of everything from brit surplus to the german stuff that is supposedly super hot stuff (and it did shoot great in my old Ishapore jungle carbine. I never blew up....but I never shot any in a semi-auto .308 Good rifles get good US made ammo. These days I shoot mostly handloads and reloads in everything anyway with factory US made ball when I'm lazy or need more brass.

In a deffensive carbine I like .223...small light and wickedly efficent...varmints are not hard to kill inside 200 yards 2 legged or 4. Light recoil means quickly reaquiring the target(s) with WAY less muzzle-climb than the average .308 You CAN take deer with a .223....I've seen many taken especially on youth hunts. It's far from ideal...the light recoil makes it a nich gun for yougsters though. .243 in the right loads is way more eithical to me though. So as a game getter I'd say .308 gets the knod certainly between those two...it's a very efficent deer round for out to 300 yards certainly. (.7mm-08 is just about "perfect to me" and can be loaded 120gr for varmints and 139gr for deer and is a little flatter shooting with a slight BC advantage perhaps. I guess it all comes down to what you like and want and what you are going to do with it. They ALL have their place and their "niches" bullet weight wise. One of the reasons I like my 7 mag...it runs anything from a 120-175gr well ...if you don't mind burning a little more powder to accomplish the same thing in some cases. I have a light 139gr load a kid could shoot easily. I have some moderate to "pretty hot" 154gr loads for deer and general use. And I'm just starting to work on the heavier side for bigger game (in the event I ever end up going out west or up North)

Like Deniro said in "Ronin". ...it's a toolbox...you just pick the right tool for the job

 

[salty]

You need to avail yourself of current information on the subject as it it rather vast. I recommend you check out your local news stand and review the current issues of gun related magazines. Buy the ones that appeal to you. I also recommend you stop by your local computer store and purchase a new keyboard with working cap letter keys so your communication via the computer will be improved.

 

[jahwarrior]

you're right, neo; i asked my dad, he corrected me. i've shot 30-30, never 30-06. told you, i have little rifle experience.

 

[Baba Louie]

Think of the .308 Winchester as a .30-06 short... sortof. Pretty much the same thing ballistic-wise packed in a shorter case.
Good for most hunting on the North American continent unless you like to shoot way out to Ft Mudge (which probably isn't a wise hunting tactic).

The .223 evolved (more or less) from a varmint round and is good for prairie dogs and such hunting. As others have pointed out it's military brethren is the 5.56x45 NATO round (almost the same thing, just as a .308 Win is likened unto the 7.62x51 NATO... again, more or less).

Both good rounds within their limitations. Ya gotta love sales hyperbole.

.30-06 in lever action... 95 Win or Browning BLR?

 

[Slugless]

Statistically, 5.56 FMJ is more lethal than 7.62x51 FMJ (about 10%).

Exit wound size depends on what the bullet is doing at the exit - tumbling, fragmenting, traveling point forward, traveling point backward, etc.

The size of a permanent cavity from 5.56, softpoint or FMJ, is about 2.5 - 3 inches in gelatin.

The size of a permanent cavity from a 7.62 FMJ is about 1.25 inches

The size of a permanent cavity from 7.62 softpoint is about 6 inches.

The gelatin testing has the permanent cavity well inside the gel. I don't know how it translates to exit wounds but from medical data the size of the permanent cavity is consistent with lethality.

 

[USSR]

The size of a permanent cavity from 5.56, softpoint or FMJ, is about 2.5 - 3 inches in gelatin.

The size of a permanent cavity from a 7.62 FMJ is about 1.25 inches

So, when the gelatinoids attack, be sure you're shooting a 5.56mm.

Don

 

[W.E.G.]

Buy the AR15 with the chrome-lined bore.

 

[Dave R]

Here's the simple version.

.223 is basically 5.56X45 NATO. Its a cartridge for prairie dogs and coyotes. In many states, its illegal to hunt deer with a .223.

.308 and 7.62 NATO are basically the same, and are cartridges for deer and bigger game.

.308 is more powerful than the .30-30 you've shot. .223 is less powerful than the .30-30.

the .223 while leave a nice little hole in a guy, but the .308 while put a hole ya can out yer fist through."

I'd say the salesman is right in this case. Last critter I shot with a .308-level cartridge (a wild hog) had an exit wound the size of a fist.

 

[chris in va]

My friend just bought a fancy 308 FAL of some sort. Kicks pretty good for a gas gun. The muzzle brake really helped though. Keep in mind 308 runs $500 a case right now, so $.50 a shot.

I think 223 is still about $200 a case at the moment.

 

[.cheese.]

So, when the gelatinoids attack, be sure you're shooting a 5.56mm.

Don

don't laugh. They show no mercy and are just awful.

When gelatinoids attack, I'm just going to surrender.

 

[Snapping Twig]

Gelatinoids aside (that's funny stuff ), the differences in practical terms are as follows:

.223 is low recoil, anti-personnel and varmint oriented. A "zombie" round if you will. You can keep your sights on the target and unleash additional rounds effectively.

.308 is a medium recoil round and is generally used by civilians for hunting game in the lower 48 to great effect. Military and police use it for longer range targets and barrier penetration, additionally it is a light machine gun round. You WILL loose your sight picture when you fire a round and must reacquire it before effectively firing again.

Both work well and game has been taken with the .223 and people have been taken with the .308, but for the civilian, hunt with the .308, "zombie" and plink with the .223.

 

[General Disarray]

Ah, the age old of all age old questions. I'm glad to see some new insights on this. I'd like to toss in some first hand knowledge if I may, but first I'll offer this from our old friend Boston T. Party's Gun Bible: both are sufficient when it comes to a well placed shot. The real question in terms of a defensive round is which would you want to depend upon to penetrate cover? That point always stuck out in my mind. They both can kill at 300M, but .223 is losing its energy at that range, and .308 is only half way through it, right?

Anyways, the question I think that needs answering is why does one want an "evil gun". Everyone knows that for hunting a bolt gun in more acurate, reliable, and sufficient. Black guns are cool, but why do civilians want them? I have both in an AR platform, and I my answer is: BECAUSE. I hunt with my bolt. I take the blackies to the range to hose it down. The .223 has zero recoil, and can reach 400m steel targets no problem. My wife is now referring to it as "her rifle", whereas the .308 she's only shot once (something about the recoil ). The .308's not bad at all once you get used to it, and it's accurate at 600m on a windy day.

BTW, there is no longer such thing as "cheap plinker rounds" in my world. Cases when I can find them are $300, and my local shop tells me the next batch coming in will be $325. The .308 is $500 when I can get it. These are no longer cheap to shoot ($125 for .223 when I started), but they sure are fun as hell.

 

[Soybomb]

To add to whats already posted, if you're looking for a self defense weapon, consider splitting the difference and getting a 6.8spc gun. I think its about the ideal package for most uses along those lines.

Statistically, 5.56 FMJ is more lethal than 7.62x51 FMJ (about 10%).

Can you cite those statistics, I'd like to see them. Really though, do we even care about fmj. The military might be bound to using them but we have the opportunity to chose better things like soft points.

The size of a permanent cavity from 5.56, softpoint or FMJ, is about 2.5 - 3 inches in gelatin.

The size of a permanent cavity from a 7.62 FMJ is about 1.25 inches

The size of a permanent cavity from 7.62 softpoint is about 6 inches.

What specifically are you refering to? Volume of the permanent cavity in cubic inches? Inches in until maximum cavity size?