308 Rifle suggestions

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Another vote for considering the PTR91... I've heard the complaints about ergonomics, but it sure feels good in my hands. Great shooting, reliable, inexpensive magazines... and not as ugly as a FAL (that's sure to get some comments... it's personal opinion, guys, take it easy!)

M1a's are very nice, but I like a pistol grip on my rifles.

AR platform is wonderful, but I already have an AR, in 5.56. Wanted something different in .308.

The Saiga in .308 is a very nice rifle for the price, I have a friend who has one, it's fun to shoot, reliable, accurate enough for short range work, light, and affordable. That last is one thing that most 'battle ready' .308's _don't_ have, including the PTR91.

Here's a shot of my (14yo) daughter sighting in on a clay pigeon with my PTR91...
kiraptr91.jpg
 
I recently obtained a DPMS LR-308T. Put a cheap 6-24 scope on it and the accuracy is better than I hoped for. Shooting Georgia Arms 168 gr HPBT reloads, my average groups are around 3/4". Some around 1/4".
Going to try some federal and black hills next trip out.
 
I too have been looking for a semi-auto 308...mostly for range use, and possibly HD.
I think the M14 is the best looking rifle around (like that is worth anything).
The commonality of the AR rifle is a double edged sword...everybody has one and they all pretty much look the same. But this means that there are tons of parts and pieces to upgrade.
I personally would like to find a good reliable piston actuated AR-10...anybody heard of one?
 
unusual FAL?

i used to have a springfield named FAL. was actually made by imbel, under license from FN. they came with hammer forged, chromed bore bbls. it would print just over an inch @ 100yds, with 5 rounds of american eagle ball ammo, and not just "once upon a time". not routinely, as sighting was a problem. same was stone stock, except for trigger mods and scope/mount. the only way to accomplish this was to draw an "X" at 45 degrees to the old style extra heavy duplex leopold 1x4. the center junction of same subtended well over an inch at 100yds, and was not designed for pinpoint accuracy. with a fine haired 10X optic, i'd say this would have easily shot under an inch. but the heavy haired leo showed up in ANY light i could find a target in. so much for the target scope........

even the TAPCO cheapo rail scopemount is rock solid on an FAL. the DSA is a mobetter unit. anyone with more dexterity than a rock can install same. the rub is that they do make for a harder cleaning, and usually shift POA when removed and replaced.

the trigger of an FAL is NOT the ointment in the fly...it is the trigger return spring. this a function of various armies not feeling their grunts could be trusted with a good trigger?!?! same is EASILY modified by clipping, or compressing with vicegrips, using a dowel pin inside of it to keep it straight. heat one end with a butane lighter, untill it starts to turn blue. then quench under cold running tap water, before decompression of the spring. this will result in a progressive spring, as opposed to just clipping. i would however be amiss if i did not seriously recommend you stay ABOVE 4lbs trigger pull, whichever method you choose.

gunnie
 
Gunnie,

I've worked on more than my share of FAL triggers. You can lighten the spring, but that does nothing to change sear engagement or overtravel. Because of the interrelation of parts, you can't easily make changes. It's a royal PITA to improve the trigger. If you've read the FAL books, you note that FN design a completely different trigger system for a proposed FAL match rifle.

M!A can be made to have pretty good two-stage triggers, but should never be set for less than 4.5 pounds for safety if using the original design. A Rader trigger for the same rifle can be safely set for as little as 1.5 pounds.

There are several AR-10 triggers that are adjustable for weight, sear engagement and overtravel.

The HKs are unfixable, with the exception of the PSG-1 and MSG90, which use a different set of trigger parts. Fope the same price you can get a fully tricked out AR10 that will outshoot them, and still have air fare to Africa for your safari.

None of them will match a good trigger on a bolt gun (e.g. Jewell)
 
GunTech said:
The HKs are unfixable, with the exception of the PSG-1 and MSG90, which use a different set of trigger parts.
Say What? :what: That's just B.S. The HK91 trigger is quite easy to improve. I had Bill Springfield do my PTR-91. When I bought it, the trigger was long, heavy, and felt like dragging a lead sled across a gravel driveway. I sent it off to Bill with $45 and it came back less than a week later. There is no NO-takeup, almost imperceptible overtravel, and it breaks like the proverbial glass rod with about 4 pounds of pressure.

Williams Trigger Specialties also does HK91/PTR-91 triggers, and I've heard good things about their work, too.

It is true that the PSG-1 uses different trigger parts, but the stock G3/HK91/PTR-91 trigger is quite capable of being excellent for precision work for very little money.
 
matter of preference

i found the FAL, @ (+,-) 4lbs, quite acceptable.

as i have never shot the AR-10 systems, i believe your statement of a better trigger design, ~more pull weight friendly. adjustable is just icing on the cake. the US govt has, for as long as i've read about manufactured war toys that are designed to be used by SHOOTERS...the single action 1911 has a better trigger than any other fighting semiauto handgun i know of, for example. the american people are blessed by a constitution that {still} reserves citzens the right to own firearms. we take it for granted that most of those who read or write here have been shooting since we were big enough to hold a firearm offhand. many foriegn army soldiers fire their first weapons in boot camp.

still, like the accuracy robbing 1x4 leo optic, i prefer a trigger that runs near 4lbs in a fighting semiauto weapon. it is NOT going to wring out every ounce of accuracy the weapon is capable of. same just seems better suited {to itself} for the iron's purpose.

but, i also don't want a 1911 that goes less than 4lbs, just a matter of preference.

i agree with you about the bolt iron being the place for mental impulse activated triggers. my surgical grade bolts aren't EVEN near 4lbs.

i also agree with father knows best that the cetme/91 triggers can be modified to a pull weight that is also acceptable for a semiauto battle rifle. their trigger return springs have been designed to meet a german army criteria of being able to drop onto the butt, on a concrete surface from a ridiculous height, cocked, with saftey off, and not dicharge. their sears/hammers are even less modifyer friendly than the FN. perhaps father knows best's smithy is on to something i'm not, but i haven't been been able to get less than 6lbs from the OEM trigger components of same. still 6lbs is a quantum leap better than the OEM trigger, especially if it has the clean breaking characteristics he described.

gunnie
 
OK, we are defining acceptable triggers by different standards. 'Acceptable military trigger' is not the same as 'good trigger' IMO.

I have not seen or tried a Bill Springfield trigger, so I'll accept that it is better than the stock trigger by a good margin. As you note, original G3 specification stated that the rifle should not fire when dropped from a height 15 meters with the safety disengaged. I can recall outting a trigger gauge on more than a couple of HK91s and recording pulls weights as high as 18 pounds! Standard GI M14 run at about 6 pounds, with match triggers at around 4.5, two stage and a very clean break. There are both 2 stage and single stage triggers for the ARs. Most are drop in, requiring little more than adjustment. The M1A, FAL and (apparantly HK) requite the services of a gunsmith.

I did note that I have yet to see a G3/Clone place anywhere in any tactical rifle match I have ever participated in. AR-10 rule the 308 matches, with a few M1As up there. The people who shoot these matches frerquently drop $5,000-10,000 into their rifle/scope combos, so cost is not a factor. What counts is what wins. No HKs, sorry.

As another tip of the hat to the AR-10, it is by far the most modular, serviceable rifle. Changing barrels, stocks or even detail stripping is pretty easy. Headspacing an FAL or M1A is a bit of a pain. With the FAL, you need the right locking shoulder. Both the FAL and the M1A have times threads on the barrel. The HKs have a variety of methods to attach the barrel - from press fit to welding. I'm not sure what the clone makers are doing, but with an original HK, barrel change was a thought. My understanding is that the whole rifle was supposed to be replaced when worn.

My first G3 clone was an original HK 93. It had a high coolness factor, but I though ergnomics were horrible and was designed by someone who didn't know what rifles were designed to feel like. After shooting my Steyr FAL, it felp like a 2x4. I built a few dozen FALs, using STG58 and G1 parts kits, on a variety of receivers. I'd pick an FAL over a G3 any day.

In the search for accuracy, I soon tired of the HK and FAL, and bought an SR-25. Great gun, terrible customer service - unless you are a brancg of the military. I replaced it with an AR-10T and figured out an SR-25 is the same gun for much more money. I haven't tried the DPMS or Fulton AR-10 clones

I finally bought an M1A just to fill a hole in my collection. This was followed by a few more. The AR-10 is a more accurate shooter, but I ike the M1A. It works for me, and is a nice balance or accuracy and reliability, with a high 'club' factor to boot. I also already have an AR-15 and wanted something different. I expect to add another AR-10 in the near future - a dedicated semi-auto match rifle.

So my perspective on the various semi-autos comes from owning and shooting the HK, FAL, AR-10 and M1A. I happen to have a preference for the M1A for a 'do anything' rifle. This is as a civilian. If I were looking for a military rifle - particularly select fire - I might make a very different selection.

The above is of course only my opinion. I hope I have successfully explained my rational, without simply say 'rifle A is the best - period'. I donlt consider any of the rifles names superior to any of the others in a generic way. They all have their good points. And as I noted, I don't think the M1A rates 'number one' in any catagory. But I think it rates very good in ever category. For a do everything rifle, I'd say that's a good criteria.

'Jack of all trades, master of none'
 
The HK91 trigger is quite easy to improve

Can someone do it themself? That's how I define easy. An AR can have the trigger improved by dropping in a few after-market parts. You can by a match trigger group for the M1A and drop it in as part of field stripping the gun. That is easy.

IMO, easy doesn't require sending the gun out to a Smith.
 
I don't know what Bill Springfield or Williams do to improve the HK trigger. I prefer to let pros do that kind of work. What I do know is that it is cheap and fast. With the HK, you don't need to send your gun anywhere. You just pull out the FCG and ship that. The FCG is a nice little self-contained unit about two inches square and less than an inch thick. It takes less than 15 seconds to remove, and about the same to reinstall. Just drop it in a padded envelope addressed to Bill, and you have it back in less than a week. From my point of view, nothing could be easier.

I don't have any experience with AR-10's, but the AR platform does have a well-deserved reputation for accuracy. I don't mean to suggest that the HK91 is "better" in terms of accuracy, as I just don't know. What I do know is that the HK can be a fine, reliable and highly accurate rifle. Will it beat a well built M1A or AR-10 in a long range match? Probably not, or you'd see it doing so regularly. Still, that doesn't mean it isn't capable of excellent accuracy.

I am also the proud owner of a DSA SA58 Para. Both are excellent. My PTR-91 will print consistent 1" 5-shot groups with at 100 yards, provided I do my part and use high quality ammo (it really seems to like Hornady TAP 155).
 
It all depends on your intended use.

If you want semi-auto precision, go with an AR10 style. The DPMS LR-308 rifles have garnered exceptional accuracy reviews since they were introduced, especially at their very affordable price point. I prefer forward assist in AR style rifles; some DPMS 308s have it, some don't. I'd bet you could have one built, either way.

If you want battle reliability and hunting accuracy, go with an FAL from DSA or a quality M-14 or Garand style. I'm not a fan of Springfield, for a few reasons; try Fulton Armory, Smith Enterprises, etc.

There's always the Remington or Browning semi-auto hunting rifles, if that's all you need. I know the Rem action is NOT built for constant use (AMHIK), but they work fine for hunting frequency.


-josh
 
Well,

Lots of good info here. I doubt you could go wrong with any of the rifles here. Thanks to poster like FKB, we know where to send an HK trigger for a real improvement.

Crunker1337, based on preliminary testing, the POF seems to be less accurate that a direct action rifle. There has been a lot of speculatiuon about why ARs are so intrinsically accurate comapred to other semi-autos. Many point to the lack of a moving mass (piston) putting torque on the barrel each and ever firing. I don't know if that's true, but shooting a POF next to an AR-10T, the POF shot larger groups.

FAKL, AR-10, HK, etc. All will get the job done, and some will be better at one facet than another, but all will serve well. Ultimately, each has to pick their own poison, and my favorite may not be yours and vice versa.

We each bring our own particular experince and predjudices to the table. As I noted many times, In my exoperiencem, the AR-10 and clones is the most accurate of the 308 semis. But that's not my pick, for reason stated.

Basically, what I really want is a super accurate, compact, light weight, rugged, utterly reliable inexpensive semi-auto rifle. Infortunately, you can't get them all in one platform. Pick your top two or three, and buy your rifle based on that.

Now, If SA could make a SOCOM that was really accurate (1.5 MOA or less) I'd be a very happy guy.
 
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