308 Sizing Question

[sisyphus]

I'm betting his cases need TRIMMING

I trim rifle cases every load. Even if they don't need much, they get a nice deburr and chamfer out of the trim and it's more hands-on time for me to find any split necks I might have missed when sorting.

 

[BushMaster-15]

I trim rifle cases every load. Even if they don't need much, they get a nice deburr and chamfer out of the trim and it's more hands-on time for me to find any split necks I might have missed when sorting.

OK : So Your cases are the COAL . Do You anneal ? . May I ask what press You're using dies shell holder ? . I use Dillon aka Big Blue and have a variety of Dies RCBS ,H and Redding . I've made it a point to pre clean my cases and use a decapping die ,prior to doing anything else with them . That gives Me a chance for inspection . I believe I previously stated I also had a problem if not exactly like yours so close it's scary .
I took the dies cleaned everything re lubed them and took 100% of the stroke slop out of MY Dillon and checked everybody and all was well . What I found out in MY case was two fold , one annealing insured proper shoulder set back which STAYED PUT and some of My rims were gnarled from gas gun extractors . MY Bolt rifles DIDN'T seem to have that problem ,as I keep ammo separated . I adjusted My gas blocks and that greatly reduced any rim issues .

I'm getting on an average of #18 reloads on gas guns ,before I retire them or use them in Bolt rifles . Anneal every third firing and as yet have ZERO case failures ,now I'm Not proofing chambers or cases but they're running up near limits . So far have had one cracked neck and honestly that could have been there before I loaded it and I just didn't see it . I've got a mixture of cases and that cracked neck was Heli door slinger fodder 2016 I believe .
Other stuff goes 1953-56 in .308 and 43-44 in .30 Cal . Those were really UGLY cases when I got them but to MY surprise cleaned up well after 75-77 years and hold up way better than anything I can lay my hands on newer . SO FAR .

 

[sisyphus]

OK : So Your cases are the COAL . Do You anneal ? . May I ask what press You're using dies shell holder ? . I use Dillon aka Big Blue and have a variety of Dies RCBS ,H and Redding . I've made it a point to pre clean my cases and use a decapping die ,prior to doing anything else with them . That gives Me a chance for inspection . I believe I previously stated I also had a problem if not exactly like yours so close it's scary .
I took the dies cleaned everything re lubed them and took 100% of the stroke slop out of MY Dillon and checked everybody and all was well . What I found out in MY case was two fold , one annealing insured proper shoulder set back which STAYED PUT and some of My rims were gnarled from gas gun extractors . MY Bolt rifles DIDN'T seem to have that problem ,as I keep ammo separated . I adjusted My gas blocks and that greatly reduced any rim issues .

I'm getting on an average of #18 reloads on gas guns ,before I retire them or use them in Bolt rifles . Anneal every third firing and as yet have ZERO case failures ,now I'm Not proofing chambers or cases but they're running up near limits . So far have had one cracked neck and honestly that could have been there before I loaded it and I just didn't see it . I've got a mixture of cases and that cracked neck was Heli door slinger fodder 2016 I believe .
Other stuff goes 1953-56 in .308 and 43-44 in .30 Cal . Those were really UGLY cases when I got them but to MY surprise cleaned up well after 75-77 years and hold up way better than anything I can lay my hands on newer . SO FAR .

Redding T7, all Redding dies, Giraud Triway trimmer, no annealing yet, rifles eject to 4 o'clock

 

[stillquietvoice]

Check the case rim to see if it's still square, not stress bent from difficult extraction from die. Had that happen a few times as well as hardened brass, and cases too long.

 

[BushMaster-15]

Redding T7, all Redding dies, Giraud Triway trimmer, no annealing yet, rifles eject to 4 o'clock

OK : After firing #3 rounds ,can You please take an average measurement of those spent case ,so we all know WHAT'S out of spec ,including the case diameter .250" from the base up **. That tells ME a whole bunch as it's a KNOWN problem area , Along with OAL and most importantly headspace cartridge measurement . Hope You have a headspace gauge ?.
++Meaning that's what needs squeezing and is the HARDEST to get close on resizing IMO . As I stated earlier I've got #9 various brands of 7.62x51mm and willing to bet I come up with minimum #4-5 different Diameters a quarter inch up from the base of that case . Going to give you an example of what I'm driving at :
I grabbed just #4 different brands 0.4670" o.4660" 0.4550" and Mine 0.4690" as I'm never able to squeeze down any tighter . The Best quality NATO cartridges I have are older Belgium made and 0.4665" .
The BEST MATCH Ammo I own unfired measure 0.4670" . FYI : That .250" base measurement " Normally " corresponds where the Bright Ring ( FL die stops on the case ) and where I've always had issues related to .308 resizing ,as far as the cases going into a case gauge . Going into chambers is GENERALLY HEADSPACE issues at least for Me .

 

[BushMaster-15]

Ditto. I have done this also. It helps.

That can never hurt and I myself have done the 90 180 270 360 dance when initially resizing auto fired cases ,as I swear some I've gotten over the years came out of VN vintage M60's with chambers 0.0850 "out of spec or at least it seemed like it .

 

[lightman]

Caution although altering a reloading component can seem like a good solution ,it's NOT really addressing the actual problem .

Reloading components are machined to a high degree of tolerance ,they're not some piece of gas pipe scrunched in a vice with a weld on it . .

I hear what you're saying and pretty much agree with you. This was the worst batch of brass that I ever worked with. It was all I had, and after buying it I couldn't afford anything else. It must have been fired in worn out machine-gun. I'm guessing a 1919 Browning.

I tried everything that I could think of. I resized it, no go. I resized it leaving it in the die longer than normal, no go. I marked the cases and rotated them 90º and resized them again, no go. It was trimmed, no go. It was annealed, no go. I cut shims to put between the shell holder and case head, almost but still no go. I had a Gunsmith check the headspace in my rifle and it was good. It was also him that suggested shaving a few ten thousands off of the shell holder and he did that work for me. It was also him that suggested that I paint it so as not to grab it by accident. Once I got the brass to chamber the first time my standard shell holder and dies worked fine after that. These were surplus 30-06 cases, not 308.

 

[Pulldeaux]

Does RCBS still make case gauges to measure sholders,find out what the case measure is .
Have one in every die box ,there is a need to know what a fired case is to adjust dies for that gat.

 

[BushMaster-15]

I hear what you're saying and pretty much agree with you. This was the worst batch of brass that I ever worked with. It was all I had, and after buying it I couldn't afford anything else. It must have been fired in worn out machine-gun. I'm guessing a 1919 Browning.

I tried everything that I could think of. I resized it, no go. I resized it leaving it in the die longer than normal, no go. I marked the cases and rotated them 90º and resized them again, no go. It was trimmed, no go. It was annealed, no go. I cut shims to put between the shell holder and case head, almost but still no go. I had a Gunsmith check the headspace in my rifle and it was good. It was also him that suggested shaving a few ten thousands off of the shell holder and he did that work for me. It was also him that suggested that I paint it so as not to grab it by accident. Once I got the brass to chamber the first time my standard shell holder and dies worked fine after that. These were surplus 30-06 cases, not 308.

I'm using .30 Cal M1 cases from 1943-44 and have had NO issues and doubtful anyone could find uglier to start with cases than I've got . I don't disagree with Your solution ,it's just that Presses ,Shell holders , Dies are to be used as they come . Otherwise what's the point of purchasing them in the first place . Thus the industry standard thread ,as Dies are Dies , supposedly . I will openly admit some are BETTER than other brands .

Now when I say with no issues ,that's AFTER I've worked them . Gas guns have GENEROUS chambers Bolt Rifles NOT so much , so MANY things can go wrong switching ammo or cases . If you have been following the thread I spoke about the .250" measurement from base vertical above the rebated rim and it's Diameter . Also known as the bright ring ,where the Die stops from going all the way down past rebated rim .

It's the most inconsistent Dia. on any case and where I believe is Problematic for 30-06 and .308 ,as it's prevented cases from going fully into a case gauge or chamber . Again I admit some of the latter 2015-16 cases LC I had to use a SB Die in order to get them back within reasonable spec ,as regular Die just wouldn't squeeze it far enough to hold . Once they went through the SB Dies ,they were golden and after numerous firings ,regular Dies have worked just fine . As I said Generous Gas chambers with pressure loads does a number on spent cases .

I'm simply trying to Help a fellow reloader work through a situation BEFORE having to alter something . FYI : By You having the shell holder ground down ,puts your case below the Normal bright ring thus shrinking that .250" measurement Diameter smaller and fixing what I've been eluding too .

 

[mjsdwash]

I've had .308 cases refuse to size after a certain point. The press felt like it was bottomed out, but it was not. I looked and still a slight amount of space between the die and plate. I found that using STP instead of normal oil or lanoline eliminated this problem.

 

[BushMaster-15]

I've had .308 cases refuse to size after a certain point. The press felt like it was bottomed out, but it was not. I looked and still a slight amount of space between the die and plate. I found that using STP instead of normal oil or lanoline eliminated this problem.

I use Boeshield T9 lubricant for ALL my resizing needs ,it's NEVER failed ME in 30 plus years using it . I've also had several of MY Dies coated with various products on the micron level although Not what I'd hopped for it has helped tremendously for NOT sticking cases . Currently working with a super Company and director on eventually coating the insides of Dies with a product slicker than Teflon yet near diamond hardness . If and When perfected it could be a MAJOR break through in chamber barrel Dies and ??? Life cycle . My original intended purpose was to eliminate the necessity for case lube altogether .

MY last set of Dies of which was an entirely different coating , survived #42 case resizing with NO lube ; Before I stuck one . Expanders or exterior parts can be successfully coated thus eliminating the need for case neck lubing altogether . Half the friction of Teflon and hardness of Diamond super thin micron thickness . Proven successful on cutting edges of industrial tooling .

 

[BIZERKO666]

When you resize the case, spin it 180* after the first resize and do it again. I don't know why, but it has worked for me in the past with 308 machine gun brass.

This.

 

[jmorris]

…all my cases _just_ failed the case gauge. Close, but no cigar.

I would experience about one round per magazine that would not go completely into battery and click no bang. Those rounds always fired on the second try, because the bolt carrier finished sizing the cases.

Interesting, wonder if they case gauge after the 2nd chambering? FWIW primers not fully seated can have the exact same symptoms, as far as “click” once then fire with subsequent impacts.

First thing I would do is make sure factory ammunition will pass your case gauge, assuming the rifle runs fine on factory ammunition.

Next, I would remove the decaping stem/expander, use a good case lube and size a case and see if it passes. If it does but they start failing when you replace the expander, your expander is yanking a good case coming back out, turning it into a “fail”. Need a better lube or a better application method, if that’s the result.

If, without decap/expander, they are still too long, I would get a set of steel feeler gauges and put them between the bottom of the case and top of the shell holder. They generally come in sets with .001 increments. Start with .001 and go up until you are where you want to be.

Like this.



The thickness that makes everything all right, is also the precise amount that needs to be removed from the face of the die. A lathe makes short work of the issue but the face of the die isn’t very critical, a sander could get the job done.

 

[JFrank]

I ruined a good feeler gage doing that.

 

[jmorris]

I am not sure where they cam from, I think they might have been my Grandmothers. They are the set I keep in the reloading room, we’re made in the USA though.

 

[JFrank]

Sweet’ guys overlook the value of feeler gages quite a bit.

 

[jmorris]

I think my most abused set is probably the ones I use with my plug gap tool.



Not as much pressure as required to size a case but a lot smaller “SI”, especially with the .025 electrode on Iridium plugs.

They remain unharmed but are also old, made in USA.

 

[sisyphus]

Next, I would remove the decaping stem/expander, use a good case lube and size a case and see if it passes. If it does but they start failing when you replace the expander, your expander is yanking a good case coming back out, turning it into a “fail”. Need a better lube or a better application method, if that’s the result.

Just today I added the carbide expander to my sizing die, so if that was the issue the carbide ball should nix that. I'll let you know next time I load 308

 

[lightman]

Just today I added the carbide expander to my sizing die, so if that was the issue the carbide ball should nix that. I'll let you know next time I load 308

I think you will like that carbide expander. I have them in the dies that I use the most. Just remember its brittle so be gentle with it!

 

[jmorris]

Just today I added the carbide expander to my sizing die, so if that was the issue the carbide ball should nix that. I'll let you know next time I load 308

If your problem goes away that would be great. Not taking things for granted and taking things to their most basic form and testing, is how you find them otherwise.

Kind of like throwing parts at a car that won’t start vs finding out if it’s a fuel, spark or compression issue first. We have it pretty basic in reloading though, not many parts involved.

I do have carbide .223 and .308 dies but still use a good lube, I would rather use regular steel dies with a good lube than carbide with say, One Shot. You can feel the difference in the handle, it’s that obvious.