308 with Berger VLD 175 grain bullets

[chemist308]

Today I picked up a box of Berger VLD 175 grain bullets because I couldn't get Sierra Match King 175. They were not cheap by comparison so they came with great, as yet unmet, expectations... I was looking for something I can qualify out to 600 yards with and have an interest in learning to shoot to 1000 yards.

Does anyone have any load suggestions for these with Hodgdon BL-C(2) powder?

So far I've tried shooting these with a single 2.8 cc lee dipper of BL-C(2), and 3 - 1 cc dippers of BL-C(2), but am only grouping at about 2.5 MOA, which for me is abysmal considering I can 1 MOA with 168 gr Sierras. Maybe I'm having an off day and not doing my part--probably too early to tell.

If it matters, I'm seating the VLD bullets close to or on the barrel lands of my Browning X-Bolt Medallion--essentially I seating the bullet as shallow as the rifle will still chamber, which should be right on the lands. Are VLDs really that finicky, or should I just make these to standard OAL?

 

[chemist308]

Range report

I took some loads with Berger 175gr VLD bullets and some loads with Sierra 168gr MK. Both loads used 2.8cc of BL-C(2).

This one is a 200 yard 4 bullet grouping of the Sierra MK (2 holes above bullseye and 2 below). Others were shots 1 took with different loads but didn't bother to to cover. (edit: forgot, cell phone camera was sideways...)

 

[chemist308]

And this one is with the Berger bullets on target leftover from yesterday:

 

[Reloadron]

As nearly as I can figure it using the VMD formula (VMD factor * charge in grains = volume cc) BL-C[2] powder has a VMD of 0.06450 so 2.8cc should be 43.41 grains and 3.0cc should be 46.51 grains. I have no idea how accurately you are with using the dippers and more important how well, using a dipper, you can get charge repeatability. I would really suggest a good scale and weigh each charge but to each their own.

Sierra loading manual 50th Anniversary edition suggest the following for BL-C[2] powder:

168 grain SMK Start 40.3 grains - Max 45.0 grains COAL 2.8"
175 grain SMK Start 47.2 grains - Max 44.8 grains COAL 2.8"

Unfortunately I do not have a Berger Bullets reloading manual and they don't publish their load data for the .308 175 grain VLD bullet online that I can find. It may be out there but I can't find it. Maybe someone with the Berger manual could help.

A few suggestions here. While using volume for the powder charge most of the people here just state the grains of powder used for the charge expressing charge as weight. This saves those who have something to add from calculating using VMD to get your charge weights. Next, without knowing your chamber leade nobody knows what your COAL actually is. For now I wouldn't worry about bullet seating depth. I would seat both 168gr and 175gr SMK bullets for a COAL of 2.8" and once you are printing good tight groups then worry about moving the bullet out further. Again, just my thinking on this. I haven't a clue what Berger suggest for a COAL for the .308 175gr VLD bullet.

Thursday I had my Remington 700 VSSF .308, 26" Stainless Fluted Bull Barrel (.820 inch) 1:12 twist rate, gun out to the range. This is a rifle I trued years ago so it isn't quite stock. Shooting 168gr SMK bullets over 41gr AA2495 with CCI BR2 primers and a COAL of 2.8" the gun consistently gave me .4" 5 shot groups at 100 yards. Granted, not long range but good groups. This is where I will start moving my bullets out closer to the rifling. Also, a tight 100 yard group means nothing as at 300 or 600 yards it can go sour real quick.

Unfortunately I don't use BL-C[2] in 308 so I can't be much help there. I like it in 223. For 308 I like IMR4895, H4895 and IMR4064 beyond the AA2495 I have messed with.

I know we have some serious 1,000 yard shooters in here and hopefully one of them will contribute some good helpful information.

Ron

 

[chemist308]

Paperweights...

Okay, I talked to guy who sells Berger bullets and works a lot with long range shooters. Basically I was right to try to figure out where my rifle lands where. But I'm lacking all the equipment to use these VLDs. Essentially one must use a tool to measure chamber length to lands, figure out where the bullet touches these, and then back the bullet about 0.0015 inches away from the lands.

Right now, my equipment is rather limited--most of my good stuff is 500 miles aways. So all I've got to make a load work is a Lee dipper set, neck sizer, seater and a hand press. The impression I get is VLD bullets are definitely not for a reloader trying to make it work with low tech on a budget.

So, I'm out $60. Only reason I mention it is to help you folks because gunshops are stocking whatever they get their hands on. Just so happens all mine could get in 175 was VLDs. That said, I'll either scrap them or give them to buddy who does nothing but mag dumps from his AR and PRT. Thanks for reading... :banghead:

 

[Reloadron]

I agree with the fellow as to the bullet seating. My point was before you worry about bullet seating depth I would try and get a good working load. The trick to loading long range or accurate ammunition (if there is a trick to it) is uniformity and consistency in the loads. For example all the cases should be identical, trimmed to the same length and most guys use brass like Lapua. Some guys even check brass flash hole uniformity. The powder charges should be individually weighed. I doubt using a dipper your charges will be uniform. The idea behind getting OCD with this is to eliminate as many variables as possible in the loading process that have an effect on accuracy.

Something simple you can do with what you have is size a case and without a primer or charge start a bullet seating into the case. Just start the bullet into the case. Now using a black marker color the bullet black. Next gently chamber the cartridge and gently close the bolt. You are using the rifle chamber and bolt closing to seat the bullet. The bullet ogive will engage the lands and grooves. Next gently try to remove / eject the cartridge. Look at it closely and you should be able to see where the bullet hit the rifling. Measure the COAL of the cartridge. If you want .015" off the rifling then subtract .015" from what you just measured and load your rounds to the new COAL.

Yes, there are tools to do this:
RCBS Precision Mic 308 Winchester
Hornady Lock-N-Load Bullet Comparator Basic Set with 6 Inserts (Used with Hornady OAL Gauge).

Those are a few but the list goes on. Anyway, a good number of shooters use the method I described which will tell you how much leade your chamber has and get you started seating bullets off the rifling. The guy selling the Berger bullets should have at least given you the suggested COAL for the bullets as well as Berger's suggested loading data. That would have gone a long way in getting you started. If he sells the stuff he should have the data.

<EDIT> I just looked and while I don't have any Sierra 175 grain bullets I do have some Sierra MatchKing Bullets 30 Caliber (308 Diameter) 180 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail bullets. If you want them they are yours for the asking. I'll send them to you and even cover the postage. Don't start getting discouraged, the Berger bullets you have are fine, you just need the data for them and if anyone here has a Berger loading manual they can provide the data. Giving them to someone to load blasting ammo is a waste of good bullets. </EDIT>

Ron

 

[GooseGestapo]

By trying to seat too shallow, you may have the bullets out of concentricity with the case neck.
This mis-alignment will cause the inaccuracy you are seeing.
With production grade rifles, you are much better off seating the bullets to a nominal OAL where you have at least 1-bore diameter (ie: 0.300" with a .30cal bullet) of the bore riding portion of the bullet in contact with the inside of the case neck. This will mean that the boat-tail part of the bullet will be below the case neck inside the case.
I suggest you try seating some of the bullets to the nominal max OAL of 2.800" for the .308wcf and see how that affects accuracy. Sometimes at least 0.030" off the lands performs much better than touching the lands. I've got only one rifle that insists that the bullets be touching the lands to give decent accuracy... A Remington Mod-7 in .260Rem. On the other hand, my most accurate rifle, a Rem. Mod700 in .22-250 insists that the bullets be seated to no longer than the SAAMI max of 2.350", but at that "magic" number gives accuracy in the .3's with Sierra or Nosler bullets.

I've found that with my "sporter" grade rifles that the Berger's don't necessarily give better accuracy than Sierra's.
It requires a match grade barrel with minimal dimensions to get the good from the Bergers.
Neither my E.R.Shaw barreled M98 in .257Robt. or my Weatherby Vanguard in .257mag gave as good of accuracy with the Bergers as with Sierra's Nosler's (hunting bullets). However, a Ruger M77MkII with a "short" throat gave better accuracy with Berger's than anything else shot through it. But, the rifle would not shoot anywhere as good as the two previously mentioned rifles and was sold/traded off....(1moa with Bergers, 2moa or worse with everything else, but did kill big-game reliably).

Some rifles just prefer something called a "length tolerant bullet". ie: some shoot better with Hornady's than Sierra's...
That's why having a choice is good...