.32 Auto opinions

[Guillermo]

I sure hope that she never has an attacker more vicious than a de-clawed feral tabby cat or a rabid gerbil. The Seecamp LWS32 is a beautifully designed pistol that is horrendously underpowered for protection against a human assailant.

It is more of a “comfort” than “defense weapon”.

 

[golden]

Guillermo

I hope you are kidding about the .32ACP only being able to stop a cat.

I would not choose it over a 9m.m. with +P, but the statistics show it is anything by ineffective. With SILVERTIP, it has been show to stop 2 out of 3 times. That puts it ahead of the .38 roundnose lead load that police carried for half a century and at least equal or better than the .380ACP using ball ammo.

Jim

 

[Guillermo]

Of course I was exaggerating about the feline. I hope that the owner of that weapon never has to defend themselves against anything, including kitties or Gerbils.

Still, even a hot round in 32ACP is not a man stopper. Even the wonderful Silvertips in +P configuration only generate somewhere in the neighborhood of 130 lbs of energy. Hardly enough to stop a full size human.

Is it better than nothing? Certainly, but also it cannot be considered anything beyond “better than nothing.”

In the name of full disclosure, I carry a pistol that I consider “barely adequate”. Due to the Texas weather my hip usually sports a "mouse gun." My daily carry is a NAA Guardian in .380 loaded with Gold Speer +P’s. When I wear more clothing than a polo and jeans I carry more pistol.

 

[alaskanativeson]

Not to be disagreeable or anything Guillermo but the .32 is a perfectly good defense caliber. Even a .45+p is not guaranteed to be a "man stopper" against a determined attacker minus anything but a CNS shot. (By the way, that's what sleeps on the table by my bed, my USP Compact in .45 loaded with 185 grain +p loads, it's what makes me comfortable.) A .32 will do what is necessary to stop almost any attack. Having a gun and the will and ability to use it is far more important that the tool being used.

That said, the .32 round does have a very good track record in the statistics from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow. With a 66% one-shot stop rate I have felt well enough armed with my P32 in the small of my back for many years. It's not the gun I'd recommend for this lady because a tiny pistol like that still really suffers from recoil for one with tender hands. Funny thing, even with my disagreement with you about the effectiveness of the .32 I'm going to agree with you on recommending the .380ACP. A slightly larger gun like a CZ would be great.

 

[thertel]

I carry a Beretta Tomcat when clothing dictates a smaller gun and I absolutely love the gun. I do recommend getting a replacement mainspring to help with the trigger pull. another great thing is that you don't have to rack the slide to chamber a round, it has a flip up barrel that you load it in. My Fiance is a little girl, 5'11" 120#, and she can keep the gun MOP (Minute of Plate) at about 15 feet, and rack the slide without problems.

I really like the alleycat variant with the XS Big Dot Tritium sights.

I think I'm gonna take mine out shooting tomorrow and show it a little love, assuming I'm allowed to borrow my own gun.

Thomas

 

[Funderb]

wow some people are really hating the .32.....
I like it. it's fun.
If you shoot someone with it they will probably die at some point.
If they don't die, they will certainly not be laughing all the way to the bank.
And .32 is loud. man it is loud. Just because it doesn't make one's torso explode doesn't mean it's worthless.

 

[Funderb]

I though double posts were impossible?

 

[Guillermo]

Alaskanativeson,

Certainly I don’t view anything that you offer as being “disagreeable.” I have been reading the bantering on these boards for a long time and learn a great deal from people with differing veiws.

I opine, as do many people who are armed with much more gray matter than myself, that the 32ACP is quite inadequate for self defense. It compares favorably to a .22 LR but not by much. Even a defense load offers very little knock down power. Of course the problem is that the round is underpowered to start with and then gets shot through a very short barrel. The full effect of any expansion of a hollowpoint are not realized.

Don’t mean to start another thread but you mentioned Marshall/Sanow. Their conclusions are VERY optimistic and many believe (as I do) that their methods are fatally flawed. Note: Some rounds figure as negative manstoppers and others greater than 100%. You have to concur that something is amiss. http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm

Of course we can go back and forth about ballistics and evaluations. The bottom line for me is “why?” Any platform that will fire a 32ACP will fire a .380 ACP. Even the little Kel-Tec! The recoil is indistinguishable and the potency is increased by about 40%. Why carry less when more is a no-cost option?

Please understand. I don’t “hate” any round. Heck, if it creates torque or recoil I am probably a fan. Also, I respect your right to carry whatever you want to protect yourself. I just hope the feral cats don’t get too rambunctious.

 

[Funderb]

The FN/Browning 1922 that I used before the firing pin broke has a pretty long barrel. It's still quite small though. With hollow points I'm sure it can do the same damage that a .380 through a short barrel would.

 

[conw]

Has she shot different guns?

Just consider this. A "pocket gun" with a small caliber may have comparable FELT recoil to a big, heavy gun with a somewhat larger caliber. Thus, there is really no point in getting a subcompact gun, regardless of the caliber.

Have you (the original poster) been filling her head with things like "Women need a low recoil gun" or has she actually decided this herself?

http://www.corneredcat.com/

^ that site has some excellent advice about helping a woman choose firearms. In short:

The caliber she'll prefer probably isn't the one you expect.

Some women love big calibers but hate small calibers. Some love .40s and hate everything else. Some hate .380s but love 9mms. Some find the recoil of a .40 too spiky for their tastes but find a .45 pleasant to shoot.

Women are individuals, just like men. You can't pick a caliber for her, or even predict which caliber she'll prefer, because you can't crawl inside her skin and feel what she feels when she pulls the trigger.

I really encourage her to check that site out!

And I really discourage her from arbitrarily choosing .32acp over any and all other calibers when it doesn't even seem like she's compared it "on-range" to others.

 

[Guillermo]

Funderb,

It is possible that a 32ACP might perform as well as a 380ACP if shot from a longer barrel. I doubt it but until the comparison is made, who knows?

Again, my question would "why?" Certainly a .380 would perform better in the longer barrel so for defense purposes it is thus superior.

BTW, do walrus purr?

 

[mavracer]

Guillermo,
Your throwing around that +p alot neither loads you mentioned are +p.
also if you were to do a little more load reserch the european 32 acp is loaded much hotter and is on par with your 380 load. I use Fiocchi 60 SJHP they chrono 1200 FPS from my gun as advertized for 192 ft.lbs which is only 4 less than your golddot load has out of a 1.25" longer Bbl than your gaurdian.

 

[skywarp_]

Here's the thing for me, she's basing her opinion of what she wants on looks of a firearm as compared to actual performance.


Blow back .32's like the beretta are IMO uncomfortable to shoot for the dismal performance of the round. They have a sharp sudden recoil that is downright annoying to shoot. Have her shoot a variety of guns to give her a better feel for what she will enjoy shooting and practicing


My other issue is that 32acp is what i consider a legacy round. People know of it because their great granddad carried one 90yrs ago. If it worked for him it's good enough. This usually carries little rel reason as ol' granddad never shot anyone to test its effectiveness. Similarly, the .32ACP, WAS a popular police cartridge and even a military cartridge. In 2008 (reality), I doubt you would see an agency, army, or security group worth it's salt field the .32ACP as a main weapon. Sadly, in this industry many of our "experts" (gun rag writers, counter jockeys etc) are more concerned with how it was than how it is and spew their dated and dangerous knowledge on to those who do not know better. They leave out the advances of the past 2-78 years and rely on old often anecdotal evidence rather than facts.

Self defense is a decision based on compromise. You trade concealibility for firepower, capacity for caliber, power for shootability, and many others.

Have her shoot a fe guns and get an opinion based on something other than looks, research with her into the weapons and calibers of choice, and help her to make a decision she's willing to live with based on knowledge rather than arbitrary factors.

A .32 could kill someone just as dead as any other caliber but is she willing to take a bet like that or try to even her odds. Winning and losing in this situation has a huge spread.

 

[Funderb]

Indeed they do, except their "purring" is more palatable to the deaf than those who wish to retain their hearing.


Well, since this is an opinion poll,
My opinion is that .32 is a sharp, fun, round to shoot,
as for self defense... I've never shot anyone with it, but
if I ever needed to.... I'd have fun doing it...? No, that's not what I'm trying to say.
If she likes .32 then she might as well get it, practice with it, even though the caliber is a bit harder to come by, and If duty calls for her to use that round, put a few in the perp's chest. If they continue to attack, well, it just isn't your day.

 

[Guillermo]

Mavracer

Your point is well taken that ONE specific round from ONE manufacturer does make the 32 ACP a MINIMALLY effective defense round. In fact it ALMOST performs as well as the .380 ACP which is also arguably at the very bottom of self defense effectiveness.

(My calculator says 60 grain @ 1200 ft/sec comes to 191.8 ft/lbs of energy if you want to split hairs).

As you are well aware Fiocchi’s claimed performance is not the norm. Speer claims 123 ft/lbs for the Gold Dot which is right on par with what most manufacturers claim for their “defense” ammunition.


BTW
I stand corrected. +P is a specific term. I should not use it to mean “a hot round.”

 

[Guillermo]

Funderb,

It is my sincere wish that she never needs to use it to defend herself and if so that my opinion is totally incorrect. I hope the perp goes down and stays down like they were shot with an artillery piece.

BTW, load it with Fiocci SJHPs. I learned from bantering with Mavracer that if you have to use a 32, they are the hottest out there.

Today is a good day. I learned about a hot round for 32acp AND walrus purring. Cool!

 

[mavracer]

As you are well aware Fiocchi’s claimed performance is not the norm. Speer claims 123 ft/lbs for the Gold Dot which is right on par with what most manufacturers claim for their “defense” ammunition.

I am well aware of the various loads from my own 32 acps.the domestic ammo for this caliber follows your original claim and if fiocchi and Sellier&Bellot (another brand wich performs to european stds.) did not exist I would sell my 32s and buy a .380.But I also realize that at under 200 ft.lbs. all you can do is poke a little hole.neither is gonna knock any one down.also are you aware your .380 golddots do not penatrate 10" .

 

[Guillermo]

Mavracer,

While I certainly understand that there might be a couple of rounds that make the 32 acp ALMOSTcatch up to the 380, the question is why? Any platform that can handle a souped up 32 can handle a 380 which still performs better.

Also, most people are not using the rounds that you mention. Therefore they are SEVERELY underarmed instead of moderately underarmed like you and me.

Please understand, I am not a big .380 advocate. It is the best that I can conceal on a daily basis. I would carry my XD45 if I could hide it.

As you are obviously up on good ammo for mouse guns, what is the hottest .380 out there?

 

[Joe the Redneck]

I carry mosue guns all the time. Understand, they are underpowere. It is a compromise.

ALL handguns are wee feeble little things compared to rifles. If I even had to defend my life I am going for my AR or a shotgun.

Much as I an not a fan of the man, Col Cooper was right, a rifle is for when you know there will be trouble, and handgun is when you think there might be trouble. At home, a longarm is a much better option.

But if it has to be a handgun, well, you want the biggest one you can shoot. I keep my 44 Mag by my bed loaded with 44 specials. Id hate to carry the damn thing, but it makes a fine house gun.

All things being equal, bigger is always better.

There is just no way to know what a person will do when they are shot. All the numbers and studies are worthless when it is your butt on the like.

Elmer Keith said a big bullet lets out more blood and in more air. The old farmbow from Idaho knew what he was talking about. When you want to stop someone, you need to get thier blood pressure to zero. If you blow a big hole in the circulatory system, or disrubt the nerves that control bloodflow, you have a better chance of getting the BP to Zero before he hurts you.

32 don't make big holes and they don't go deep enough to blow apart spines or brainstems (sorry to be graphic, but this is serious business.) so for defense it is a poor choice.

It is, however, better than your fingernails.

If your gf has her heart set on a certain gun, just buy it. If she like it she will practice with it and become a good shot. I would rather her have a 32 she can hit with than a 9mm she never practices with and can't shoot.

Happy shooting.

Joe

 

[mavracer]

While I certainly understand that there might be a couple of rounds that make the 32 acp ALMOSTcatch up to the 380, the question is why? Any platform that can handle a souped up 32 can handle a 380 which still performs better.

One more round , most of the guns we're talking about hold one more 32 than 380. not that that was the selling point in my case.you see I bought my seecamp before the P3at or guardian existed.and my walther pp while not generally in my carry rotation I wouldn't feal underarmed.Minute of eyeball she is


As you are obviously up on good ammo for mouse guns, what is the hottest .380 out there? remmington golden saber is the only expanding bullet that penatrates close to the 12" suggested by the FBI and others. If it were me I'd be tempted to use the ww fmj it has a flat point for a better wound channel and will penatrate 12"+
here are a couple links
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=350707&highlight=golden+saber
www.brassfetcher.com

 

[sm]

Aw some folks just upset with Jim Croce is all...

Now Leroy, he a gambler
And he like his fancy clothes
And he like to wave his diamond rings
In front of everybody's nose
He got a custom Continental
He got an Eldorado too
He got a 32 gun in his pocket for fun
He got a razor in his shoe -Bad Bad Leroy Brown

He did a song with a 32 in it and some just plumb jealous he did not mention their pet caliber.

*grin*

 

[Guillermo]

Hey Mavracer,

Of course the choices for concealment weapons used to be quite limited. I bought the NAA Guardian due to budget constraints. Having said that it seems to be well constructed and has never failed. At the time it was the best I could do for 300 bucks and is popular enough that I can buy leather for it.

Thanks for the advice about the ammo.

 

[JohnBT]

"Even the wonderful Silvertips in +P configuration only generate somewhere in the neighborhood of 130 lbs of energy."

I've never seen a .32+P Silvertip and all I've ever owned were standard velocity.

This is all Winchester has on their site:

32 Automatic
60 gr. Super-X® Silvertip® Hollow Point
Muzzle 970 125
Box U.S. MSRP: $49.11 <Dang!!!>

 

[JohnBT]

Heck, I should give away my P-32, then I could sell my stash of Silvertips, Fiocchi and S&B. Even if I only got half price for the Silvertips, that'd be $25 a box.

That's sad, the ammo is worth more than the gun.

I don't carry it anymore anyway, having grown used to the weight of the slightly larger Rohrbaugh.

John

 

[Guillermo]

The Rohrbaugh looks like an incredible pistol.

Tell us...does it live up to the reputation?