338 federal

[dubya450]

Ive been trying for months, at least 8, to find either a Sako, Tikka, or most preferably Kimber (Montana) chambered in .338 federal. Ive found one or two online but really don't want to order one without seeing it in person. What are everyone's views on the 338 federal? I don't think many people have heard of or researched the cartridge but i really, really like the idea of a .33 cal bullet in a short action case (.308) that can take deer, elk, bear cleanly up to and past 200 yards while having recoil of a 30-06 or less in a light short action rifle that can come in at under 6 1/2 pounds with the kimber and right scope. And with a large selection of 338 bullets a handloader could make up a load for just about any medium to big game animal in north america. Thoughts?

 

[tahoe2]

Great choice dubya450, the ballistics speak for themselves. I kind of liken it to be in between the 8mm mauser and a .35 Whelen, both formidable non-magnum powerhouses, that hit a lot harder than their ballistics would indicate. Just talk to someone who uses them. I think the .338 Federal is in the same class and just different enough to make me want one. Never shot one(.338 Fed) but I am an 8x57 mauser fan.

 

[Craigman]

I think they are awesome. .338 anything is my new favorite right now. I wanted one a few years ago but never made it happen. I don't think any of the ones for online auction were shot much. I've never even seen one at my range. I suspect the people that bought them back when took care of them as it was a unique round/gun

 

[dubya450]

Im glad someone else is interested in it as well! Ive mentioned it in a few other threads but i took alot of crap and couldn't understand. I had said i thought with the right bullet and matched with a lightweight rifle like a kimber 84m it'd make a great round/rifle combo for whitetail while walking the woods but i think most people weren't familiar with the federal and assumed i was talking about the win mag. Do you know of any other rifle company besides Kimber that still offers a rifle chambered in 338 federal? I heard that sako/tikka halted sales in the US because of poor sales of the chambering which unfortunately is making it more and more difficult for me to get my paws on one!

 

[Wolffire99]

Other than longer ranges (275yds +) which accounts for probably less than 1% of all hunting shots in N. America I think it's one of the best do all big game cartridges out there.

 

[dubya450]

I agree 100% with you wolffire. After alot of thinking about it for the past year or so i think that if i could have only one rifle to do all itd be a Kimber Montana in 338 federal. Since its a do all bring anywhere (including Alaska) it doesn't need to have a nice wood stock so the synthetic and stainless would be perfect for snowy days in MN or wet days in Alaska, and anything else north america has to offer. There wouldn't be a huge issue if it was dropped or dinged up like a wood rifle. Its under 6.5 lbs scoped and the 338 federal can be loaded up or down for anything you can get a tag for and cleanly harvest the animal. I just can't think of a better all around rifle! I have cabelas checking on finding me one and im expecting a call sometime this week with an answer. Problem is i just spent $1300 on a different rifle last week so the girlfriend might not be too happy if i bring another one home lol....

 

[dubya450]

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_338_101207/

Here is an article i found pretty interesting

 

[cougar1717]

I would think a rifle in 338Fed is going to be hard to come by - as it appears to be. I remember when it got featured in the gun magazines. I think that part of it's lack of sales is that although it is a relatively new caliber, it treads on the old territory of heavy bullets in non-magnum cases. It's niche firearm would be a lightweight, short action rifle like you're looking for - it would be a great mountain gun. I think it's major detriment is powder capacity and speed, which is why most factory ammo uses 180-210gr bullets to keep the fps high enough so it doesn't look like a dog. The problem with keeping the bullet weights light is that there isn't a lot of incentive to switch if you already have a 308. Additionally, velocity sells rifles and the 338Fed doesn't have as much as the 338 magnum calibers. Truthfully, it would probably be easier to find a lightweight rifle in 325WSM, which gives more velocity but that's 8mm instead of 338.

 

[sage5907]

I have never shot a 338 Federal but I have looked with interest at the cartridge. I have used a 358 Winchester and I think the trajectory is similar, and based on that experience I would say that unless you are really good with trajectory when hunting it is basically a 200 yard cartridge. If you mis-judge the distance by 50 yards or the animal is moving it would increase the difficulty factor. If you are really interested take a look at GunBroker, all three brands, Kimber, Ruger and Sako are usually for sale. If you don't like the rifle when you get it send it back. BW

 

[kcshooter]

Additionally, velocity sells rifles and the 338Fed doesn't have as much as the 338 magnum calibers.

No way am I buying a 338 magnum anything. The whole reason I bought my Tikka in .338 Federal was the ability to have a .33 caliber cartridge that didn't leave my shoulder on the ground.

Backed up by a Limbsaver prefit recoil pad, this is a caliber I can put 40 rounds down range without discomfort. In something like .338 win mag or rum, I'd be able to tolerate about 4 rounds.

I love anything that uses .308 as a parent case, .33 caliber is able to take down anything at the distances I'm comfortable hunting at, and the Tikka is a very impressive rifle. I have a feeling this round will be one of those sleepers.

 

[Robert101]

I really don't have any objection to the 338. Its kind of like the 45 automatic vrs 9MM arguements - not really that much difference in ballistics to matter. By that I mean that the 308, of which I already have guns, brass and bullets is so close to the 338 that I don't see a need. If I need that much more power I'm skipping over the 30 06 to the 300 Winchester Mag. I'm still sold on the 308 as my universal 30 ish caliber round. I know the .338 is larger and that alone does have a plus.

 

[riflefan]

For what its worth Armalite is chambering the AR10 platform in 338 Federal. Not exactly a Kimber but with the right stock and being semiauto I would bet you could shoot it all day without discomfort.Also would be rugged enough for most any day of thrashing around the brush and brambles.

 

[kcshooter]

Its kind of like the 45 automatic vrs 9MM arguements

Sort of.
To me, the "this vs that" becomes redundant and pointless in handguns, but the other attributes of rifle rounds, such as ballistic coefficient, sectional density, velocity and trajectory differences and the weight of the bullets, all play a much bigger role, and there is a lot of that that I really enjoy.

 

[Abel]

I think that I would prefer a 358 Win over the 338 Fed.

 

[jmr40]

I looked at the 338 Federal, and cannot find a use for it. A 308 shoots most of the same bullet weights to almost the same velocity. They are within 50 fps of each other across the board until you get up to 225 gr bullets where the 338 has about 100 fps advantage.

I can't see .03" bullet diameter making any difference, especially when you consider the smaller 308 bullets have better sectional density and given equal bullet weight, velocity and construction the 308 will out penetrate the 338 Federal.

With todays much better bullets there is less need for heavy, large diameter bullets. A 150-165 gr 308 Barnes TTSX @ 2800-2900 fps will kill anything in North America, including the large bears. Even if you want to go old school, the 308 does just fine with 200 gr Nosler Paritions @ 2500 fps on the big stuff.

 

[rbernie]

I think that I would prefer a 358 Win over the 338 Fed.

Pretty much so.

 

[kcshooter]

A 308 shoots most of the same bullet weights to almost the same velocity. They are within 50 fps of each other across the board until you get up to 225 gr bullets where the 338 has about 100 fps advantage.

I can't see .03" bullet diameter making any difference, especially when you consider the smaller 308 bullets have better sectional density and given equal bullet weight, velocity and construction the 308 will out penetrate the 338 Federal.

It isn't all in the velocity. Although it will outdo 308 velocities by about 200fps in 180-200gr, not 50 as you stated.

The energy of the .338fed is much higher than a 308win. It's higher than .358win. And significantly higher, too, 400-500ft lbs. We're talking 7mm mag equivalent, with less recoil, in a short action. Nearly 90% of a .300 win mag's energy, with about 30% less recoil than the 300wm.

It's much more potent than you have apparently been led to believe.


It's a specialty round, and sure, you could do about anything with a .308, but to say it's no better than a .308 for hunting isn't telling the whole story.

 

[Craigman]

you could do about anything with a .308, but to say it's no better than a .308 for hunting isn't telling the whole story

agreed. Its kind of like the 30-30 is as good as the 35rem.....on paper they look close.

One reason I like this better than the .358win is the bullet selection. Not much in .358. I have a whelan and a 35rem so I am familiar. I find deals on old stock or someone that is getting out for reloading's collection of .338 quite often too.

 

[2ndtimer]

I lucked onto a Ruger Hawkeye All Weather Stainless in .338 Federal for $399 new from CDNN and bought it for my oldest son. He wanted something capable for deer and elk at reasonable hunting ranges. It is fairly light, seems reliable and doesn't kick any worse than my .270WSM. As you can tell, I kind of like having something a little different. We haven't had the opportunity to take any game with it yet, but I have no doubt it will prove quite effective with the 180 gr Nosler Accubond at 2700 fps or the Hornady 200 gr SP at 2500+. I tend to consider it as a practical hunting cartridge, similar to the 6.5x55 in that the numbers don't sound all that impressive, but I am hoping it will prove to be very effective in the field. With a little luck, he will find out this fall.

 

[GooseGestapo]

If you "want" one, get it. Remember, even though you are buying "sight-unseen" when ordering a firearm on the internet, most dealers will give you the right to return a firearm if it fails "your" inspection. As long as your recieving dealer dosen't transfer it to you (fill out and you sign a 4473 form), you can return the fiream. All you are out is the cost of shipping. Remember, if you drive 200mi to an "instate" dealer, you'll spend more on gas than the cost of shipping the rifle....

Personnally, I think that you'll be pleased with the .338Fed. I don't have a "Federal", but I have both a custom .338/06 in a MkX Mauser action, and a Marlin .338MarlinExpress which has essentially identical ballisitics to the .338Fed. (slightly higher case capacity equivalent to 8x57Mauser) but operates at slightly lower pressures. (A 200gr bullet at ~2,550fps).

I've taken two deer with the .338MX. Both were "bang-flops". I've taken over a dozen deer with the .338/06 and lost an elk I hit with it. (cross-wind took bullet ~10" on a 250yd shot and hit the elk too far back in lungs.... other hunters got to it the next day before I could track it down..... and finished it off and carted it off with horses..).

There definitely is a difference between the .338 and .308" diameters. The .338's hit with more "whop", and bullet construction favors the .338" diameter.

I also have both .35Rem and .358win rifles and there is no doubt they both hit harder than their .30cal counterparts....
Wether or not this makes a real difference in real world hunting is debateable, but I get a greater satisfaction hunting with the larger bores.

Like Jack O'Conner stated once in comparing the .270 to the .30/06. A deer hit with the '06 is "apt to flinch more" indicating a good hit....

A .338Federal with the 210gr Nosler Partition at about 2,500fps is a formidable rifle. You have to shoot it to appreciate it..... IMO it is actually too much for mere deer..... I'd more likely use either the 200gr Speer or Hornady soft points for deer. I've shot deer with both of these at ~2,700fps from my .338/06 and the 200gr Hornady FTX from the .338MX at 2,500fps. They are both "plenty" for game up to moose and elk. I'd not be concerned with facing a large bear with either, however, if intentionally seeking grizzly or brown bear, I'd be carrying my .375Ruger. Only because I have one and "can"......

 

[jmr40]

Although it will outdo 308 velocities by about 200fps in 180-200gr, not 50 as you stated.

Not according to any of my loading manuals. The max loads for 308 an 338 fed in my books show

308/180 @ 2661fps
338/180 @ 2682fps

That is a 21 fps advantage with a bullet of inferior SD

With 200's my loading manuals show

308/200 @2514 fps
338/200 @2545 fps

A 31 fps advantage, once again with an inferior SD.

As you move up in bullet weights the advantage is greater with the 338, but why bother with anything over 180 gr in either chambering?

I am chronographing 165's @ 2765 and 150's @ 2850 fps from my guns. With a quality bullet in those weights there is simply nothing on this continent that won't die any deader with the 338 Fed. in any bullet weight. Not saying it doesn't work, but it doesn't work any better than existing rounds that are much more common and versatile. Modern bullets have re-written every thing we thought we knew about rifles and hunting. Some guys are still trying to use 1800's science and technology to solve problems in the 21st century.

It is bullet construction and placement that kills stuff. Bullet weight, velocity and diameter have become almost irrelevent. Certainly far less important than 150 years ago.

 

[kcshooter]

Well, according to my loading manuals, I've got loads that push 180gr over 2800fps in 338fed. I have loads that push 200grs over 2700. I've got loads for 160gr that are pushing over 2900fps! Maybe you need new manuals?

Still don't see the difference?

Once again, you still aren't considering energy. You seem solidly focused only on velocity, because that's all that's in the book. There's more to it than that.
A .338 at 2800 is going to have over 400 and as much as 500 ft lbs more energy than a 180gr .308. Does that not seem like a significant factor of a hunting round to you??

Some people get so wrapped up in velocity and "what the book says" that they can't actually figure out the true power of a round.

1800's science? I'm using 2100's math. 150 year ago, or 150 years from now, energy will be a very important factor for hunting rounds.



.308win is still my absolute favorite rifle cartridge, which is why I try to embrace it's offshoots. .243win, 7mm-08, and especially the .260rem and .338fed.
Again, I am not saying a .308 isn't an excellent hunting round, but if you think that .338 is no better than a .308 for hunting you're just simply misinformed.

And besides all that, what if I just want this round to have a .338 caliber round that I can actually manage as a recoil sensitive shooter?

 

[natman]

The energy of the .338fed is much higher than a 308win. It's higher than .358win. And significantly higher, too, 400-500ft lbs. We're talking 7mm mag equivalent, with less recoil, in a short action. Nearly 90% of a .300 win mag's energy, with about 30% less recoil than the 300wm.

It's much more potent than you have apparently been led to believe.

Since you neglected to provide any examples, I'm going to guess you're comparing the energy of 180 grain 308 loads to 180 grain 338 Fed loads. Sure enough, the 338 Fed loads do provide more energy, but comparing bullets of the same weight in different calibers will almost always provide similar results.

This merely illustrates how tricky using energy as a comparison is. I know that if I had a shot at an elk and had my choice of an 180 grain 308 and a 180 grain 338, I'd take the 308 because of it's vastly superior sectional density and penetration. A 180 is a decently heavy bullet in 308 and a rather light one in 338.

 

[dubya450]

Regardless of the difference in velocity or energy between the. 308 and. 338 fed, half the reason i want one is because its different than every other rifle i have. The bonus is, for me, its an ideal chambering in a light short action rifle. Nothin wrong with 308 at all, i just like a little variety!

 

[kcshooter]

I'm going to guess you're comparing the energy of 180 grain 308 loads to 180 grain 338 Fed loads

You don't have to guess, I said that.

the 338 Fed loads do provide more energy, but comparing bullets of the same weight in different calibers will almost always provide similar results.

No kidding. That was my point. He's comparing similar weights, and lower velocities, and I'm stating the drastic increase in energy, showing the difference in the rounds.
He's stating that the .338 doesn't do more because of the similar speed, I'm showing the impressive difference in the rounds because of what that speed does to the energy.
Want to compare just speed without the energy? .338 can add 20gr to a bullet and still match or beat the speed of a 180gr .308.

This merely illustrates how tricky using energy as a comparison is

It's energy. It's not a trick, it's math.

I know that if I had a shot at an elk and had my choice of an 180 grain 308 and a 180 grain 338, I'd take the 308 because of it's vastly superior sectional density and penetration.

I guess you just can't understand that drastic increase in energy can actually provide more penetration, with almost no increase in wind drift in normal hunting ranges. Light bullets don't penetrate more, especially when they are moving slower from the start. If you're hunting elk, ammo in .338 gives you a few options that will be much more worthy than any .308 load.

See, once we're off the paper, and you're going elk hunting in the real world, at the distances that are generally considered reasonable hunting distances, under 300 yards in most cases (or almost every case around here), one round becomes a better choice than the other.

Vastly superior? You gotta be kidding me.

A 180 is a decently heavy bullet in 308 and a rather light one in 338.

You're right, a 180gr is a heavy load in .308, so we should compare that to a heavy load in .338, say 225gr.
Now who's got superior sectional density and penetration?