.338 Win.Mag. or .375 H&H...?

[BusMaster007]

.338 Win.Mag. or .375 H&H...? (SHORT version)

I can't stand it any longer.
I've always wanted to own a rifle in .375 H&H.

For years now, I've been engaging in a hot debate with an acquaintance that is a fanatic about the .338 Win.Mag. and Controlled Round Feed...

I eventually bought a .338 in the form of a 1995 Remington 700 BDL-DM, and it's a good gun.
Yet, the urge for the .375 H&H is just too strong to pass up (making me a fanatic, as well, I guess).
Since I am a Remington owner/enthusiast, I will stick with the 700 BDL platform.
This is my case for that platform and cartridge:
___________________________________________________
"On the one hand, you can choose the CRF 70 and in the 'rough and tumble' situation, not work the bolt hard enough, and die getting a jam because you didn't clear the previous case; or, you could run your rifle dry and not be able to stick a cartridge in the port and PUSH it into the chamber to get a quick shot off...because with the CRF you have to force the new cartridge into the magazine first for the 'claw' to engage the rim and 'control the feed' into the chamber.

On the other hand, you can choose the PUSHFEED 700 and in the 'rough and tumble' situation, work the bolt any way you can, the 'plunger ejector' is going to shoot the old case out, clearing the port and enabling you to shove a new cartridge into the port and PUSH it into the chamber to feed the gun for a quick shot, whether you ran it dry or not.
In my mind, that gives me an edge and less chance of dying trying to feed my firearm while the dangerous game is trying to 'claw' me and 'control feed' ME. I like my odds better with the pushfeed and plunger ejector."
_____________________________

You're views?

 

[Badger Arms]

TOO much to read. Just buy the .375.

Were it me, I'd get the Sako 75. My god that's a sweet weapon. Costs more, but you get what you pay for there. Super-slick action, three lug, 60 degree bolt throw. Mechanical ejector, Sako extractor (arguably the best). Free float barrel. You'd have something to brag about and never feel like you compromised. C'mon, buy it. You know you want it!

Sako Home

 

[tex_n_cal]

Well, I have a .300 mag, and a .375.

What would you like to shoot?

Elk? a .338 is plenty, and it shoots flatter than the .375. Elk or moose in heavy timber? Hmmm...the Three Seven Five makes bigger holes. Then again, so does a .416 Rigby or a .45-70.

Big bears?Hmmm....I would go with the 375. I like mine, it is capable of shooting well with both light and heavy loads. Lots of good bullets made for the .375.

Of course, I could really mess with your mind and send you in search of a .358 Norma Magnum

 

[BusMaster007]

Brevity...
Someone gave my friend a Tikka 695 in .338, so, if I showed up with a SAKO .375 H&H, that would kinda put things in perspective!
Arguing about this topic with this guy is: :banghead:
It gets this way in this field of interest and I thank y'all for letting me vent!
I'll take a look at the SAKO link. Thanks.

 

[vibrasonic9]

Why not do what I did and get both? I enjoy them both......I took a Nilgai with my 375 first of the year and it did a good job. A flatter shooting cartridge would have been better in the situation I was in, but it was a hoot either way. My .338 is a Ruger M77MKII with iron sights and it shoots great. The .375 I have is a Whitworth, it's been ported and is a baby....kicks about like a 7mag. and is very accurate. The Whitworths have an excellent reputation for fast barrels and accuracy as well.....they can be had at a good price too.......they are CRF. In my limited experience CRF vs. PF is a matter of personal preference, my guns are CRF but Iwouldn't feel unsafe with a PF....I don't normally shoot upside-down.

Be safe, have fun.
Rod

 

[BigG]

You just have a yen for a 375, period. Although the 338 will do most anything, it is not a 375 in the minds of us 375 buffs. I know, I've had the urge 3 times. Bought one, shot the bejeebers out of it, thought I had got it outa my system, sold it. Only to find that I got the yen again, etc. Both were Winchester 70 push feeds. I finally bought my third and maybe last 375 H&H. It's a CZ550 controlled round feed. Never had a 338. It just doesn't have the charisma of a 375 H&H. Go figger.

IMHO, there ain't a dime's worth of difference between CRF and PF as long as you learn how to work your chosen rifle.

Just be glad you haven't been bitten by the 458 Win Mag bug. Had that happen, too!

 

[cratz2]

Other than the fact that they're both big boomers, I just I don't see them as appples and apples. Yes you can take any big game in North America pretty reliably with either of them, and yes they are both amon the most recommended calibers for non-dangerous African game but I doubt any professional guide in Africa would recommend a 338 for buffalo. And certainly not for elephant. That's where the line is drawn - if you want a rifle for North American game and African plains game, I see no reason to not go with the 338 other than it doesn't have the history of the 375. On the other hand, if you're buying a rifle to take to Africa for both plains game at ranges not too far past 250 yards, AND dangerous game, the 375 is the only way to go.

And while the 375 is fairly flat shooting and certainly capable of taking game at longer distances, it's not in the same league as the 338 in this department. But as many have said, what's the fun in taking dangerous game if you're 400 yards away from it? It ain't dangerous at those distances.

Lastly, the recoil aspect. The 375 kicks roughly 50% more than the 338 and the 338 is already about 50% more than a 30-06. This may not bother some shooters but it should be a consideration. I've never shot a 338 but I've shot a heavy 300 Win Mag, a very light custom 300 Win Mag and a 375H&H. The 375 was... eye opening. I admit that I'm no fan of huge recoil but with my limited experience, there is no way that I could keep 3 shots within 6" with a 375. As always, shot placement is most important and if I were going to Africa, for plains game as I have no plans on hunting dangerous game at this point, I'd take a 7mm Rem Mag because I know I can consistantly hit what I aim at with it.

Best of luck with upstaging your friend. I'm sure a nicely figured Sako in 375 Holland & Holland will do nicely.

 

[Bottom Gun]

Felt recoil has a lot to do with the way the stock is cut. That's why Sakos are excellent choices in larger calibers.
I really like my .338 Finnbear. The recoil isn't bad and it puts elk down with a lot of authority.

 

[BusMaster007]

This is great stuff, guys.
What was said about the 'ability' of the .375 has been one of my strongest reasons for getting it.
Africa is most likely never going to happen for me. Alaska, maybe.
Elephants and Cape Buffalo? Prolly not. Big Bears? Could be.
That's where I see the .375 as being more comforting to have in hand.

The long distance shooting point was good, too. I figure smaller animals and lighter calibers are for longer distance shooting. My 7mm Rem.Mag. or .30-06 is for this type of game.
Bigger game is something I intend to shoot with bigger bullets at 300-yds. or less, probably much less.

The comment about the .458 Win.Mag. reminds me that my Marlin 1895 in .45-70 with superstoked loads from Garrett or Buffalo Bore is as close as I'll get to that level.

I'll mention that the .338 I've got would be used to trade for the .375.
This passion is all too consuming sometimes!

 

[BigG]

I have been getting these panicky urges to run down to the gun store and buy another 458 Win Mag. I sold my Model 70 Super Grade thinking I'd gotten it out of my system. Wrong! :banghead:

The kick of that monster with factory loaded 500 grain pills is at least 50% more than the venerable 375 H&H from my seat of the pants computer. :banghead:

 

[BigG]

Another point I just thought of for what it's worth.

The guns in the serious calibers 375 and up often come with superior IRON SIGHTS. Not always, but the Winchesters did and the CZ sights are even better. The CZ has Express three leaf sights with 100, 200, and 300 yard folding leaves. The 100 is dead on with factory ammo and the gun came with a 100 meter test target of three shots in about 1 1/4" with the technician's signature.

Usually, the 338s I've seen have no iron sights so you gotta scope em and that takes some fun out of the experience for me. I like shooting a bruiser at short range using the iron sights. YMMV

Conversely, no Weatherby I'm aware of comes with irons, even the lumbering 460 Magnum. This is overkill for the blunt nosed 500 grain pill at some 2,700 fps (30/06 180gr velocity) !!!

 

[cheygriz]

I have both. Either will do the job. Both are flat shooting and hard hitting. (with the right ammo)

But there's the mystique of the .375. There are probably better built motorcycles than Harleys. But they're still not Harleys. You buy a Harley to have a Harley!

You buy a .375 because it lets you "feel" the connection to the glory days of African hunting. It lets you feel a kinship with the great white hunters of the 19th and early 20th century.

In short, you buy a .375 BECAUSE it's a .375. and if you're really in to it, you buy "The Riflemans' Rifle" the Model 70 Winchester. The .375 that many of the great African hunters carried.

 

[Badger Arms]

There's alot to be said good about the 375 H&H. Most of the reason is, in my opinion, Balance.

Let me list some other balanced calibers:

5.56x45
250 Savage
30-06
50 BMG

All of these are roughly the same balance caliber. The 50 BMG is merely an upscaled 30-06. The .338 is a good caliber, but it's not in the same class as the .375 much like the 270 Winchester is in a different class than the 35 Whelen. There really aren't any bad calibers, just a different niche for each caliber. The above calibers are a great matching of caliber, case capacity, and bullet weight.

 

[444]

I have nothing valuable to add to this conversation other than to say that I have also always wanted a .375 H&H. I guess it was from reading all those books about African hunting that did it to me. I do own a .338 Win Mag and it is a fine rifle (Model 70), but I would rather have a .375. I was looking at the CZ, is it a 550 ? I don't know if I will ever take the plunge. I really can't justify it to myself. I seldom shoot my bolt rifles and don't hunt anywhere near as much as I talk about it. Still................

 

[BusMaster007]

You've been very patient with my questions, especially after my originally too long post. Thank you.

I'll ask a bit more regarding the virtues of the CRF vs. PF feature and then mull it over from there (even though my mind is already made up... ).
This is the main point of contention with my buddy and I'd like to hear what you think.

Please talk a bit about the importance or lack thereof re CRF or PF and which you prefer and why. Let 'er rip!

 

[Badger Arms]

The ONLY advantage a CRF system has over a push feed is this. A CRF rifle is LESS LIKELY to double-feed than a PF rifle. Let's explain what a double feed is.

A double-feed in a PF (Push-Feed) rifle is where a round is pushed into the chamber far enough so that the rim pops out of the magazine. At this point, the cartridge is not secured by anything and is not, therefore, controlled. This is really a misnomer because if the bolt continues to go forward, the round will chamber no matter what angle the rifle is at. Now, if one stops the forward travel of the bolt after this round pops up, the round can fall out or stay in the chamber while the operator can crank another round in and jam it behind the first round.

Laymen will say that this is a big problem and a gun with push-feed is flawed, blah, blah, blah. The biggest arguments I hear are: 1) gun will jam 2) point of second bullet will discharge first round. I think this is all poppycock. In order for this type of jam, one would have to INTENTIONALLY work the action in such a manner. This is a very unnatural way for one to work a bolt action. There is the exception of a Dangerous game gun. When you are getting charged by a wounded animal, you might panic and do strange things.

The CRF has flaws as well, but they are fewer. The major flaw is that the rim of a cartridge does not necessarilly have to snap up under the extractor cleanly and without hassle, It often jams against the edge of the rim especially if the bolt is worked in the same manner as may cause a jam in a PF rifle.

There is one CRF rifle which can produce a double-feed if worked improperly. This is the M1903. If the operator mistakenly operates the rifle while assuming that the magazine cutoff is on, they can drop a round in the action while a round will also be fed from the magazine.

The push-feed rifles equiped with a plunger ejector will apply a consistent, repeatable pressure to the cartridge case. This pressure will tend to make the gun ever-so-slightly more accurate, all other things being equal. This is a minor factor, but it's often blown out of proportion by those who are trying to make a case for their push-feed rifle (probably because they own one, not because they can back-up their claim).

I like blade ejectors because you can control where the brass falls instead of flinging it on the ground. Other than that, it's more a preference of other design factors. I like the Sako because it combines a mechanical ejector with a 60 degree bolt throw and factory free-floated barrel. I also like three lugs instead of two. Imagine a two-legged stool. Not as stable as a three legged stool, eh? 60 degree bolt throw means that the bolt clears scopes better and the gun is quicker to operate.