357 125gr "factory load"

[Shrinkmd]

I was looking at my old Lyman 47th, and for 357 Magnum 125gr JHP it listed 17.7 of 2400 as the factory load, and likely most accurate. I'm confused, because the new Hornady lists 16.9 max (but with magnum primer?) Alliant data lists 17.5, and the current Lyman lists 17.7 (bolded as "best load") as well.

I made up some 17.0 and 17.5 (I checked and rechecked the measure, so the most it might throw is 17.6, most were 17.5 or a few 17.4) I'm using new Starline cases, CCI Small Pistol primers, and Montana Gold 125JHPs.

Has anyone else worked up to the top of 2400 with 125's? I'll report back after I shoot and measure them.

 

[Blue68f100]

When you have conflicting data, I always pick the most conservative and work up looking for pressure signs. Jumping to max is not a good practice.

 

[Shrinkmd]

I have previously shot the same combination up to 17.0 gr (see this older post on the velocity being on the slow side! http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=603814) I would never start at 17 without working up! My original 17.0 loads extracted fine, primers were flat (hey it's a 357) but zero problems.

 

[kingmt]

Do they list the same COL?

Are you useing the same COL?

Your gun still isn't your gun so don't start at there max load.

 

[kingmt]

You posted while I was typeing.

 

[Waywatcher]

When I'm going into new territory for reloading, I consult 3 or more sources. I average all the start weights and start at the average. I stop at the very first Max load (lowest max). I work up in 5% increments.

E.g.
Hornady lists 6.2 to 7.3 with powder X and bullet weight Y.
Speer lists 6.2 to 7.2 with powder X and bullet weight Y.
Lyman lists 6.1 to 6.7 with powder X and bullet weight Y.

I started at 6.1, then 6.4, and stopped at 6.7. In this case, 6.7 slightly exceeded factory specifications, and I later found 6.5 was about dead-on for factory duplication. The bullet also happened to be a Hornady, so I feel very confident that my load at 6.5 grains is safe.

Be careful, be safe.

 

[flhtcuibyhd]

I do something very similar; however, go about it in two different ways. If I'm looking for a hot hunting load, I will take the average max loads and subtract 10%, and start there. If looking for a light target plinking load, I'll start at the bottom. I usually only use the powder and bullet manufacturer data versus Lyman.

 

[rcmodel]

Current Alliant data says 17.5 2400 is a MAX load with a 125 Speer Gold-Dot.
Reduce 10% for a starting load of 15.7.

2002 Alliant data says 17.0 is a MAX load with an unknown brand 125 JSP bullet.
Again reduce 10% for the starting load of 15.3.

rc

 

[joneb]

Lyman 47th, and for 357 Magnum 125gr JHP it listed 17.7 of 2400

If you are using different components you should start at 16gr and work up.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=162395&d=1333902707
Notice the Rem.158 jhp occupies more case volume(when seated with the case mouth centered in the middle of the cannelure) and has more bearing surface than the 158 xtp.
With all else being equal I use 1gr less of AA#9 for the Rem. 158 jhp.

 

[mdi]

All the listing/data for a 125 gr. JHP will prolly be different. Different testing equipment/methods, different test personell, different powder lots, different brass, primers, different bullets (even though same configuration and weight), all will give different results. This is where common sense comes in; normal reloading process calls for starting low and working up so pick a low load, try it and if you want more, load up a bit, repeat until you find a load you and your gun likes...

FWIW; I pay very little or no attention to any load data I see from any forum "expert", website (with the exception of Powder manufacturer's sites), or "gun shop guru", as I've seen to many load suggestions that were down right dangerous. No offense to the guys that posted their fav. loads, I know you are just being helpful, but mistakes (either typos or memory lapses) do happen. I get 98% of my load data from published, hard copy manuals. If I'm shooting lead boolits, I'll use one of Lyman's manuals; if I'm using a Hornady bullet, I'll get load data from y Hornady manual, same with Speer, Nosler, etc. If I see a load that interests me, I'll compare it with my manuals' loads...

 

[Shrinkmd]

I think my original loads with these bullets were around 14.5 or 15 of 2400. I will dig up the original chrony data and post it, but you can see that I did work up to the 17gr load without any problems. I don't plan on running a zillion of these through any of my revolvers, I'm more interested in shooting jacketed in my 1894c.

For lead I'm pretty happy with 14.5 of 2400 and a 158gr lswc.

 

[Action_Can_Do]

If you're trying to hit higher velocities with the 357, you might be better served by using H110 rather than 2400.

 

[Slamfire]

Before affordable chronographs, which means I don't have velocity data, I shot lots of 125 jacketed with 17.5 grains 2400 in my M686.

The load had less recoil than a full power 158, shot well all the way out to 50 yards, and made lots of noise and produced awesome fireballs!

It really was loud.

 

[fjlee]

I was looking at my old Lyman 47th, and for 357 Magnum 125gr JHP it listed 17.7 of 2400 as the factory load, and likely most accurate. I'm confused, because the new Hornady lists 16.9 max (but with magnum primer?) Alliant data lists 17.5, and the current Lyman lists 17.7 (bolded as "best load") as well.

I made up some 17.0 and 17.5 (I checked and rechecked the measure, so the most it might throw is 17.6, most were 17.5 or a few 17.4) I'm using new Starline cases, CCI Small Pistol primers, and Montana Gold 125JHPs.

Has anyone else worked up to the top of 2400 with 125's? I'll report back after I shoot and measure them.

You might be interested in this fact:

The Speer #10 Manual lists 17.5 grains of 2400 as the _STARTING_ load for a 125 gr. bullet. Max is listed as being 19.5 grains of 2400, giving 1,555 fps from 6 inch barrel.

Their developmental loads used CCI magnum primers.

FjLee Denver CO

 

[Shrinkmd]

17.5 max vs 19.5!

Gotta love reloading. Maybe the Cowboy action crowd has the right idea. Unless you make a load too light, eh?

 

[2zulu1]

I've loaded some of those old Speer loads, current Sierra #5 data still loads 2400 hot (16.2-19.0) compared to Speer and Hornady, in fact I've backed off a Sierra workup and dropped down to the 17.7gr/2400 and it chronoed 1560fps/M686P/4".

VihtaVuori #4 data for 357/41mag max pressure is 43,500 psi, 44 mag is 40,600 psi.

 

[Shrinkmd]

Thanks for the info on Speer data. I guess I should buy their book as a counterpart to Lyman and Hornady. Gives me a little more confidence regarding my loads.

Nothing like finding one load book which lists starting loads at where another book says is Max! Although the paper doesn't know any different, and as others have said, it either doesn't matter on game, or you need to use a bigger gun.

But it's fun loading, shooting, and analyzing the data nonetheless.

 

[Blue68f100]

If I recall the Super Vel had a velocity of over 1800fps with the 125gr bullets. Win when they came out with the W296 powder the manuals had no deviation, with some of the vel almost 1900fps in there test barrel. The 2400 loads were a little more uniform at that time, with velocities reaching the upper 1600's.

In any case you should work up your loads and look for the signs that pressures are too high. Depending on your barrel you may be able to reach the upper end without any problems but no one really knows for sure without testing.

The fun/joy of reloading is finding out what works best in your gun. This means working up loads with every bullet and powder combo you may want to shoot. My pet load with 2400 is around 16.5 gr with a 125gr JHP.

 

[2zulu1]

Thanks for the info on Speer data. I guess I should buy their book as a counterpart to Lyman and Hornady. Gives me a little more confidence regarding my loads.

Nothing like finding one load book which lists starting loads at where another book says is Max! Although the paper doesn't know any different, and as others have said, it either doesn't matter on game, or you need to use a bigger gun.

But it's fun loading, shooting, and analyzing the data nonetheless.

For JHP handgun loads I use Sierra (more powder choices) and VihtaVuori manuals a lot more than Speer and Hornady. For lead bullets I use Lyman #47 and Accurate powder data.

Keeping components constant, JHPs from Speer, Sierra, Remington, Winchester and Nosler will chronograph w/i a few fps of each other, Golden Sabers about 20-30fps slower.

 

[Shrinkmd]

Results!

Well, I shot the loads, and they are still going slow for some reason. I also shot some of my 158gr LSWC rounds, and I have some heavier lead bullets flying faster than the 125JHP's (with less powder) Go figure. Maybe the Montana Gold's jacket is too hard or something. I dunno. No 1400fps from these magnums. Basically they were duplicating 9mm ballistics!

These are new Starline cases, CCI SP primer, and 2400 powder with the Montana Gold 125gr JHP, shot in a 686 4" barrel, and 25 round samples for each:

16.5gr
High: 1230
Low: 1091
E.S.: 139
Ave.: 1143.6 1209
S.D.: 35.5
95%: 15.2

17.0gr
High: 1265
Low: 1143
E.S.: 122
Ave.: 1220.4 1258
S.D.: 29.4
95%: 12.6

17.5gr
High: 1312
Low: 1201
E.S.: 111
Ave.: 1268.3 1306
S.D.: 29.2
95%: 12.6

Now compare this to some 158gr LSWC slugs from the same gun!

14.5gr 2400
High: 1233
Low: 1155
E.S.: 78
Ave.: 1203.3 1230
S.D.: 23
95%: 9.9

15.2gr 2400
High: 1353
Low: 1235
E.S.: 118
Ave.: 1300.8 1343
S.D.: 30.2
95%: 13

Those last rounds were really cooking! And the book max is 15.5gr? I think I will stick to 14.5 or so, but it was fun running them up to see how they shot. I am sort of outgrowing 357 as I can handle the 44 magnum now, but it was fun.

So why are these 125gr not moving? Lyman 49th says that the Hornady 125gr JHP were going 1478 out of a 4" Universal receiver over 17.7gr. Mine are nowhere close! Yet, I did some testing with the same bullets in 38 Special and got respectable data which followed Lyman pretty closely. What gives? Are these bullets just not capable of handling higher speeds? My lead loads were much closer, getting 1300 with 15.2 when the book says 15.5 should yield 1344)

I have a box or two of Hornady bullets, so I will have to remake these and see how they do in comparison. Maybe also try the 300MP powder as well.

Funny thing is, I have created factory strength 44 Magnum with Hornady FTP bullets and 300MP. Has anyone else had problems with the Montana Golds?

 

[kingmt]

A man with 1 watch always knows what time it is but a man with 2 is never sure.

The manuals are just what they started & stoped at not the only way it can be done.

 

[Crashbox]

Unfortunately, I've never chronographed my .357/125 loads using 17.2 grains of 2400, Starline brass, Montana Gold bullets and Federal SPM primers. The numbers you are showing do seem slow. Maybe it's time for myself to invest in one as they do seem useful.

On another note, I have to admit that even though I wear BOTH high-quality ear muffs and plugs when shooting, these rounds have caused some hearing loss from (likely) sheer concussion from my SP101, 3" "flame thrower" as one RO likes to call it. But they are downright LOUD yet fun to shoot, and great for waking up your neighbors at the firing line.

I'm sorry I don't have any suggestions as to why the projectiles aren't up to speed...

 

[Shrinkmd]

So much for 1600 fps from Double Tap!

So I shot some more of the 17 and 17.5 2400 loads again, and I also had some DoubleTap 125gr 357 Magnums, claiming 1600 fps from a 686 4" barrel.

Well, my loads ran about 1300, and the Doubletap was 1400. So maybe my chronograph is off, or my barrel is "slow" or the cylinder gap is too big, but it was a nice 75 degree day and 200 fps difference from advertised seems like quite a bit.

I do feel a bit better about my 2400 loads though I will make up some 300MP and see if I can get closer to the Double Tap loads. Obviously any of these would work well with a good jhp. I'm assuming that the Montana Gold JHP would not open up at any speed... Accurate loads, though.

 

[moxie]

Could be your chrono is reading low.

But have you double checked your scale?

 

[X-Rap]

125gr JHP loads

I just went through an exercise much like yours, all my data was old so I was far over todays published loads but even at the upper end I saw no difficulty with extraction or blown/dimpled primers. I backed off to 18grs 2400 and got a very stable consistent 1450fps and that's what I stuck with. The above is over modern data but well within parameters of that published in the 1980's.
I tried 2400 in some lighter loads with hopes of around 1250 but they were horribly inconsistent so I picked up some H110 yesterday and hope that given the heavier charge it possible it will increase density as well as a more consistent velocity.
I also bought a new Hornady 8th edition to use with my old ones.
Have yet to see any hard evidence as to why the reduction in loads took place but I am going to go over this new manual and compare with my Hornady book from 1985 and look for other changes.