.357 /.38 Special confusion

[Mick Boon]

I Just got a new to me revolver in a trade, it's a Ruger Blackhawk convertible with a .357 /.38 Special cylinder and 9mm cylinder. Most of the load data I come across for the .38 special is considerably less potent than my standard Bullseye 4.2 grain 9mm load that I feed all my 9mm's, and it makes no sense to me... If anyone knows why safe pressure components in 9mm would not be recommended in .38 special please let me know.

 

[243winxb]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Brass is always the weak part of the puzzle. The 38 special can be loaded up till brass has to be driven out of the cylinder with a steel rod or brass fails. KABOOM

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/albums/kaboom.24/

 

[mcb]

SAAMI ( Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute) set pressure limits (along with a lot of other standards on ammunition and other firearm related specs). Following the SAAMI spec is voluntary but pretty much all firearms manufactures and ammo manufactures that are selling in the US follow these specifications.

38 Special 17,000 psi (Transducer)
9mm 35,000 psi (Transducer)
357 Mag 35,000 psi (Transducer)

You particular Blackhawk can easily take 38 Special ammunition loaded to 35,000 psi but there are 38 Special revolvers out there, that pressure that high would destroy. Since they were designed for 38 Special ammunition as specified by SAAMI. Your gun was designed to take 35,000 psi and chamber for 357 Mag and it just happens that the shorter lower pressure 38 Special will safely function in it. If you want to reload you own "super-hot" 38 Special you can but please understand the risks you create if your ammunition ever falls outside of your control it could cause issues for someone else that does not realize that ammo is loaded over SAAMI spec.

 

[DanK3Pos]

I've got one of those I inherited. Specifications are always for the cartridge, not a given revolver. Also, any .357 can handle hot .38 Special loads. Specs are higher for .357 than 9mm. However, you also have to consider what the cartridge itself can handle. At least for Starline, .45ACP and .45ACP +P cartridges are different, but they note that their .38 Special and their .38 Special +P are exactly the same, except for the headstamp.

Also consider if you load those .38 Specials hot, is there a chance down the road you could end up using them in a regular .38 Special revolver?

Another consideration, 9mm is .355 or .356, whereas .38 Special is .357, so accuracy may not be the best sending those 9mm bullets down that barrel. Certainly, grab .356 bullets, if you can.

 

[film495]

find .357 brass and look at load data for .357, it is higher pressure. .38 is much less powerful than 9mm, the load data for .38 is for a lot of different guns, many that are smaller and lighter framed than that firearm.

 

[Mick Boon]

SAAMI ( Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute) set pressure limits (along with a lot of other standards on ammunition and other firearm related specs). Following the SAAMI spec is voluntary but pretty much all firearms manufactures and ammo manufactures that are selling in the US follow these specifications.

38 Special 17,000 psi (Transducer)
9mm 35,000 psi (Transducer)
357 Mag 35,000 psi (Transducer)

You particular Blackhawk can easily take 38 Special ammunition loaded to 35,000 psi but there are 38 Special revolvers out there, that pressure that high would destroy. Since they were designed for 38 Special ammunition as specified by SAAMI. Your gun was designed to take 35,000 psi and chamber for 357 Mag and it just happens that the shorter lower pressure 38 Special will safely function in it. If you want to reload you own "super-hot" 38 Special you can but please understand the risks you create if your ammunition ever falls outside of your control it could cause issues for someone else that does not realize that ammo is loaded over SAAMI spec.

Gotcha ! makes perfect sense now.

 

[Mick Boon]

"Also consider if you load those .38 Specials hot, is there a chance down the road you could end up using them in a regular .38 Special revolver?
"
No chance.

 

[Mick Boon]

Just waiting for the postie to bring me a new 358 bullet mould, with any luck I will have it tomorrow.

 

[Bill M.]

There is just no point in loading .38 special to higher pressures than it is designed for to shoot it in that gun. Use .357 cases and load to the level you want, hight or low.. .357 cases cost the same and the chamber will stay cleaner. You can do what you are suggesting but there is just no up side to doing it.

 

[mcb]

There is just no point in loading .38 special to higher pressures than it is designed for to shoot it in that gun. Use .357 cases and load to the level you want, hight or low.. .357 cases cost the same and the chamber will stay cleaner. You can do what you are suggesting but there is just no up side to doing it.

In general I agree and yet there are specific applications where we (the shooting community) load over SAAMI.

45 Colt and 45-70 are frequently loaded well over SAAMI. A lot of modern guns chambered in these cartridge can easily tolerate higher pressures and it has become very common to do so.

45 Colt has a SAAMI MAP of 14,000 psi (Trans) and yet its fairly common to load it to 30,000 psi or more in modern Rugers and Freedom Arms revolvers and modern lever-actions.

45/70 Gov has a SAAMI MAP of 28,000 psi (Trans) and yet for modern rifles like the Marlin 1895 and similar is common to push pressure to 40,000 PSI or higher

A lot of competitive revolver shooters competing in ICORE and USPSA Revolver division use a modern version of the 38 Short Colt and that old cartridge went obsolete before SAAMI existed and thus does not even have a SAAMI spec to exceed but they are loading it way over historic pressures and in most cases well over 38 Special +P.

Many USPSA Open division shooters are loading 9mm to pressures over 9mm +P in their Open guns to make Major Power Factor.

I am sure there are other examples I have forgotten or unfamiliar with. So in general yes it is unwise to exceed SAAMI spec for the reasons already listed up thread but it is not a blanket rule and there are plenty of exceptions to this normally wise practice.

 

[shoobe01]

There is just no point in loading .38 special to higher pressures than it is designed for to shoot it in that gun. Use .357 cases and load to the level you want, hight or low.. .357 cases cost the same and the chamber will stay cleaner. You can do what you are suggesting but there is just no up side to doing it.

THIS

As long as your gun takes .357, just load those.

 

[Mick Boon]

There is just no point in loading .38 special to higher pressures than it is designed for to shoot it in that gun. Use .357 cases and load to the level you want, hight or low.. .357 cases cost the same and the chamber will stay cleaner. You can do what you are suggesting but there is just no up side to doing it.

I want to load some 38 special cases to a higher pressure than 9mm but not as high as .357. I will also load .357 cases. It makes it easier for me to keep things separate, less confusion. lol

 

[fxvr5]

I want to load some 38 special cases to a higher pressure than 9mm but not as high as .357.

That makes no sense. You can't load higher than 9mm and below 357 because the 9mm and 357 have the same pressure limit of 35,000 psi.

 

[ATLDave]

That makes no sense. You can't load higher than 9mm and below 357 because the 9mm and 357 have the same pressure limit of 35,000 psi.

True. On the other hand, if you somehow manage to cram a load generating 35k psi in a 357 into a 9mm case, you’ll generate a heck of a lot more than 35k psi.

 

[reddog81]

That makes no sense. You can't load higher than 9mm and below 357 because the 9mm and 357 have the same pressure limit of 35,000 psi.

What he said!!! I was typing a similar response but this showed up first.
.357 can use slower burning powders that allow for pressure curve that doesn't drop off as quickly and you'll end up with higher velocity with the same max pressure. Just load 9mm, 38 Special, and .357 Mag using their respective load data. It's really that simple. If you want light .357 loads the common sense answer is to use .357 Mag cases. If you want hot .38 Special loads just use .38 Special +P data.

 

[mdi]

Almost every conceivable answer so far, so I'll just add my experience; I started reloading 38 Specials in '69 and had 2 38 special revolvers before I got a 357. I had maybe 5 times as much 38 brass as I had 357 brass and I was on a very tight budget. I used 38s in my 357 about 3/4 of the time. I cleaned my guns so I did not experience the dreaded "carbon ring". After a few thousand handloads I "experimented" with heavy loads in 38 Special brass, nearing, if not up to 357 pressures. (I labeled every batch of handloads and never in 40+ years mixed any up; 357 levels in 38 snubby). I also went the other way; light 38 Special loads in 357 brass. Perhaps today with brass readily available and cheap one can say "just use 357 brass in 357 guns and forget 38 Specials", but that sounds rather narrow minded to me. I still use near Magnum loads in Special brass, and Special loads in Magnum brass as it's only logical, and I have never had a Kaboom, nor had to pound out any cases, nor had to remove any stuck bullets nor any ruined guns from "mismatched lads". If I was talking to a brand new reloader I would say shooting Specials in Magnum guns is OK and well accepted, but make sure you clean your gun, and stick to the data in your reloading manuals..

BTW, I think the 9mm conversion cylinders for 357 revolvers is more of a gimmick for those that reload 9mm and/or have 9mm pistols and plenty of 9mm ammo....

 

[Walkalong]

"Also consider if you load those .38 Specials hot, is there a chance down the road you could end up using them in a regular .38 Special revolver?
"
No chance.

Never say never, y'all be careful out there.

 

[Mick Boon]

That makes no sense. You can't load higher than 9mm and below 357 because the 9mm and 357 have the same pressure limit of 35,000 psi.

In that case why does 38 special even exist ?

 

[murf]

welcome to the forum, mick boon.

"demand" is your answer.

murf

 

[mcb]

In that case why does 38 special even exist ?

Oh boy the history of the "38" revolver cartridge (of which 38 Special plays a not insignificant role) is a long and sorted tale with many twist and turns.



Full size image: https://i.imgur.com/s7eMZze.jpg

In very short. The 38 Short Colt cartridge was created for some cap and ball revolvers converted to cartridge revolvers. The 38 Long Colt was a next step in the evolution being longer and more powerful cartridge and made for revolvers design from the ground up as cartridge revolvers. The 38 Special was the next evolution ("Special" being a similar designation to the way we think of "Magnum" today) and its inception was at the tail end of the black powder cartridges (38 S & L Colt were both black powder cartridges). The 38 Special was loaded with black powder very early in its history but was really one of the first of the smokeless revolver cartridges. We then had the moderately problematic 38/44 cartridge that pushed 38 Special performance (but did not deal with reverse capability issues) and out of that we got the 357 Magnum.

Yes I skipped a lot of the beginning and in between steps and off-shoot evolutions but the 38 Special is a very old cartridge that has manage to remain relevant in the current market.

 

[Mick Boon]

Yes I skipped a lot of the beginning and in between steps and off-shoot evolutions but the 38 Special is a very old cartridge that has manage to remain relevant in the current market.

It's only 4 years older than the 9mm Parabellum.... It's a real squib for it's size.

 

[Mick Boon]

welcome to the forum, mick boon.

"demand" is your answer.

murf

Thanks

Not by me !

 

[Arkansas Paul]

In that case why does 38 special even exist ?

Because it existed for 36 years before the introduction of the .357 magnum and for 4 years before the introduction of the 9mm Luger round.
Because there are hundreds of thousands of revolvers out there that are only chambered for the .38 special, and are not capable of handling hot magnum loads.

Remember, not everyone has a .357 magnum to shoot .38 specials out of. Some of them are just plain ol' .38s. And those are cool too. Great, low recoiling target round and adequate for self defense. Ammo is cheap. I love the .38 special, both in revolvers chambered just for it, and magnums.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

The only time I use 38 special brass in my .357 Magnum is if I'm using Elmer Keith bullets and they are to long to chamber in my Model 28 Smith and Wesson's recessed cylinders.
Short of that, I have no use for 38 special cases because I have no 38 special only revolvers.

 

[mdi]

In that case why does 38 special even exist ?

In the western hemisphere revolvers have been way more popular than in Europe, until recently. The 38 Special was born with black powder loads and transitioned to smokeless. I shot and reloaded the 38 and 357 Magnum for 30+ years before I even considered the 9mm so call me a caveman, but my revolver rounds do everything a 9mm can do (except "spray and pray" with an 18 round magazine capacity). I believe the 9mm is popular only because the police and military transition from revolvers and 1911s where rounds down range are more important than accurate shooting. The 38 Special was and still is a viable self defense, light hunting and excellent target round and still well respected by millions of shooters...