.357 large game loads

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braindead0

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I'll be doing some camping this year and I've had my share of run-ins with bears (mostly brown), never had any problems..but..

I figure if I'm going to be carrying, I outta have a good load..just in case.

So, my thinking is 180gr HP-XTP's running around 1400fps or so, as opposed to the usual 125/158gr SD loads. I'd imagine if you had to shoot a large animal with a .357, you need to break bones in order to get a stop.

Or, armed with just a .357..should I run like heck and hope I'm faster? ;-)

I don't expect to have any problems with bears or other wildlife, but I would hate to be proven wrong.
 
What gun? 180s at 1400fps are tough on a gun. You need an N frame in S&W (L frame may work as well, but I wouldn't risk it) or a GP100 or Blackhawk/Redhawk in Ruger.

If you insist on using the 357 against Brown bears, I'd go with a good hardcast bullet. You'll get better penetration and hit your velocity target easier. I've found, given the same powder charge and same primer, the HC goes about 100fps faster than the jacketed bullet out of my 4" GP100. I still use jacketed because of lead and lube smoke, but that is a personal preference.

This is all just my opinion. My personal 180gr load only does 1200fps. It's enough for now.

Chris
 
4" GP-100, I wouldn't shoot these loads regularly in anything less tough.

I have no intention of going up against any kind of bear...but just in case

Note that Hodgen has a load for 180gr nosler HP's with Lil'Gun that they report as 1422fps. I still wouldn't shoot many in much else ;-)

Perhaps some basic 158gr LSWC or RN's at 1500. I figured the extra mass of a 180 would provide better odds of breaking bones.. But, I'm not a hunter.. so I don't know these kinda things ;-)
 
corbon is right at the top of the velocity range:I would think the JHP or the hard cast would do for your purposes. they do tend to shoot higher than more standard bullet weights and may still be high with the sight all the way down.
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I have a 4" GP-100 that I have used 180 and 200gr Cast Performance bullets (LBT). 15.0gr of H110 under the 200gr gives 1221fps and 15.0gr under the 180 gets 1270fps. 16.5gr under the 180 gets 1330fps. I think that penetration is a concern, also the wound channel needs to be larger. Find a heavy hardcast bullet with a large meplat (flat part on the front of the bullet).
http://www.castperformance.com/
is where you will find the bullets that I am talking about.
-Mike
 
braindead0,
I am going to start this with a harsh note - not a personal attack but - - - -
The .357 Magnum is not a good choice for brown bear - even if you stick the muzzle down the bear's throat and pull the trigger he will kill you. It will, under the best circumstances, penetrate to mid chest but not with enough power to do lethal damage. Brown bears are unpredictable but wounded bears tend to attack. There is no way I would fire at a brown bear (grizzly) with a small weapon like a 357 magnum.

OK - if it is the only weapon at your disposal then a hard cast 158 grain KEITH style bullet is your best choice. If you can get 1400 FPS (I doubt it because I can only 12 to 1300 fps with a 158 grain JSP bullet. Typically the 180 grain bullets don't leave enough powder space to get more than about 1000 fps and that is not enough for bears that big. You are not going to break bones in a brown bear with a 357 magnum - if you shoot it through the eye you can kill it dead but if you miss, well, you're lunch.
In short, the 357 magnum, is better than nothing - unless it makes you feel better about being close to the bear.

PaulS
 
Just don't forget to count to five and reserve that last shot for yourself. Far less painful than being mauled to death.

Better off do what you have been doing and steer clear from these animals.
 
If you can get 1400 FPS (I doubt it because I can only 12 to 1300 fps with a 158 grain JSP bullet. Typically the 180 grain bullets don't leave enough powder space to get more than about 1000 fps
Click to expand...

I can easily get 1200fps in a 4" barrel with a 180gr SJHP. This is a chrono'd load and one that I've shot a fe hundred rounds of so far without harming the gun. Others have hit as high as 1400.

Chris
 
I was chronographing at 1350 with 180gr and 19gr Lil'Gun. No problemo and no signs of overpressure. I've got at least 2 loads with 158gr hardcast lead that net 1490+fps out of my 4" GP.

As far as the .357 not being a good choice, I know that. Just happens to be the most powerful concealable handgun in my current collection.

As I stated, I've met dozens of brown bears in the past... some as close as 15' away. Never had a problem, don't run just leave the area slowly.. or in the case of the 400# monster in the campground, keep an eye on him and be prepared to get in vehicle and bug out...or just do it if he/she isn't just passing through.

I'm mostly curious (not being a hunter) about which way to go, energy or velocity. Seems to me that with any given caliber, same bullet style, more energy is good.

Perhaps my best bet would be to load up with 158gr RN's at high velocity, they should work good against 2-legged beasties well enough and provide a bit more penetration.

Face it, if a bear is going to charge you.. you will not outrun it and don't bother climbing into trees, I've seen brown bears lounging in pines 20' off the ground... I'm talking last resort here.
 
PaulS has some good thoughts. The .357 is not a Brown bear gun,especially in an emergency. The more powerful the pistol, the better off you will be. I also heartily agree with a Keith Semi-wadcutter for whatever you decide on. Hell, a lot of high power rifles are not enough gun for an angry bear. Stay clear of bears altogether. Quantrill
 
Read what I wrote, I'm not going out hunting bears..but some folks seem to think that's what I'm doing here.. As I said, I've been wilderness camping all my life, met many bears.. When I was a kid my dad always had a 1911 around camp (even in PRK ;-), figured just in case.. Other than the .30-06, that was the best he could do. Never once had to fire a gun at a bear.

I'm just trying to stack the odds if it came down to it.

The point was simple, not 'what would you bring to hunt bears'.. simply, what kind of .357 load would be better...:D


I find it interesting that a 158gr Keith type hardcast would be better than a 180gr XTP-HP...
 
Yeah, this sounds like something I'd rather not do... But I can understand your question.

I forget who, but some company out there specializes in tough heavy lead hunting bullets and I remember seeing a 180 gr HARDcast swc type loaded round they sold for .357's.

One of the cast bullet forums would probably have the answer on this, once they get past the thought of using a .357.

Ross Seyfried also did an article in G&A years ago (late '80's ??) on this type of round.
 
OK - if it is the only weapon at your disposal then a hard cast 158 grain KEITH style bullet is your best choice. If you can get 1400 FPS (I doubt it because I can only 12 to 1300 fps with a 158 grain JSP bullet.
Click to expand...

1,400 fps is easily reached with a 173 gr Keith in a 4" GP100. In my 4" the original 357 Magnum load does 1,386 fps with that bullet.

I agree with the others that a LSWC or LBT style bullet will be better than a hollowpoint for bear defense. You're going to need penetration - as much as you can get - and a hollowpoint isn't going to be the best tool for that job.
 
Hey John...

That's the kinda answer I was looking for, I think saeco has a 173gr Keith type mold..perhaps it's time to get one ;-) Or a 180..or gosh a 200..yikes...

I've got some hardcast 158gr LSWC's and LRN's, perhaps my best bet is just to kick those up a notch. I think the likelyhood of having a run in with a 2 legged beastie is a heck of a lot more likely.

I was really curious about the penetration/damage kinda thing. Seems you're best chance on some large wild animal (bear/elk/moose) would be to break bones (shoulder/pelvis preferably).. as that's probably the only way to get a good stop.
 
If you can't get something heavier than a 158 then I'd say you're right that would be your best bet. I think the LSWC would be better than the LRN for this use, it should make a slightly bigger hole.

Here's a load I'd suggest:

typical 158gr LSWC
17.0 gr of Lil'Gun, CCI SPM primer, 1.615" OAL

In my 5.5" Redhawk that load went 1,445 fps with a standard deviation of only 12 fps.

18.0 is the max suggested by Hodgdon with a shorter OAL so the above load should be safely below max, with a little room to go up if you so desire. But that load was so good in my Redhawk I didn't see a need to try for a few extra FPS and sacrifice such a consistant load.
 
Yeah, I noticed that load on handloads.com.. Been meaning to give that a 'shot'. Probably work pretty well for pin shooting too, at least better than my normal IDPA load...
 
Braindead0,
I just realized that you are not talking about Brown bears - you are talking about "brown" bears. When you called a 400 pound bear a monster - Thats a black bear that may be brown but it is NOT a brown bear. A "monster" brownie would be 1200 to 1600+ pounds. The .357 is adequate for defense against a 400 pound bear. Not the best choice but definitely adequate.

PaulS
 
I'd think a 16" level would handle these loads pretty well. I think most of the loads that have been discussed here are within the pressure limits of .357, some perhaps are a bit stiff and wouldn't be suitable for a small-frame revo I'd think.

I found some 180gr FMJ's that I might load up, or would an FMJ actually expand better than say a hardcast Keith/SWC style?

PaulS: You're probably right, most of my runins have been in the Sierra Nevada range... I did see one in a campground that would probably up in the 1000# range (sitting on his arse, he appeared approximately 6' tall). That particular example was a known campground scrounger, didn't have a radio collar but he did after they trapped him this time.
 
I found some 180gr FMJ's that I might load up, or would an FMJ actually expand better than say a hardcast Keith/SWC style?
Click to expand...

You're not likely to see any expansion at all with either bullet type. They're both made to hold together and punch deep. I belive that the Keith style will cut a bigger hole than the FMJ though.
 
My understanding is the Keith bullets will travel a straighter path through the animal; FMJ tends to cause less tissue damage and deflects easier.

Also, I have a 16" .44 with some 300 gr rounds loaded up for that longer barrel. I keep looking at .357 levers for the same reason.
 
I'd agree that any .357 mag platform is on the light side for anything defensive against an angry (big) bear.

I while I'd say that a goodly 160+ Keith-style SWC is a pretty good game-getter, I'd not want to use one for defense against a big bear.

Take a look at what Barnes X-types are available. They seem to hold together better'n anything else (for full penetration) without losing much far as weight goes.

Figure it as an investment as they're way pricey all told, but still within anyuthing else of the "premium lines." & it's not like you'll be plinkin' with these rounds anyway, right?

Load 'em up to max your's'll take. Call it "good enough," but again, I wouldn't count on anything .357 mag actually stopping a really big bear.
 
Living in an area that is full of Griz (Western Montana) I can tell you that almost nothing will stop these critters. 12ga slugs are good but even when they are hit hard, they don't die right away. There have been bears found full of holes, dead, with humans in their stomachs. Do not mess with these guys.

If you are in the Sierra, you will not see any Griz....and blacks are generally not agressive / unpredictable.

Griz are approximately eighteen feet tall in their youth and then they get big.:eek:

Chris
 
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