.357 Loads

[P Flados]

I have loaded lots (many thousands) of mid range 357s for "just shooting". I have mostly used either Promo (bulk version of Red Dot) or Titegroup, and my favorite bullet is a powder coated cast 120. My velocities are not far from the 1200 fps you have mentioned.

For mid range loads, either your case is going to be less than 60% full or you will be using a slower powder that will be operating well below the optimum chamber pressure. With a low fill percentage, I feel that I get more consistent ignition with the faster powders.

For the same velocity, faster powders will give higher chamber pressure, but lower muzzle pressure and less muzzle blast.

The 1200 fps range and a low cost 125 or so bullet should hit the goal stated in the OP. You want "more than 38" while allowing for high volume shooting without unneeded pain or fatigue. The load should be tailored based on the gun. Expect the "happy middle" to be a little less velocity for lighter guns, a little more for a heavier gun.

 

[fxvr5]

There is zero chance new loads are faster. There hasn't been a major revolution in pistol powders like there has been in rifle.... superformance, and leverrevolution has boosted velosity to unimaginable levels in rifles, and I'm sure there are others. Lil gun might be faster in a carbine but no major difference in pistols....

Zero chance? Really? And you know what powder they use? Where does this insight come from?

My notes from the article are below. For clarification, the article looks at the ballistics of 158 grain bullets in the 357 Magnum as shown in ammo manufacturers’ catalogs (Remington, Winchester, Federal).

When introduced in 1935, Elmer Keith says the ballistics were a 158 grain bullet at 1518 fps from a 8 3/4” barrel (see the link below). The first published speed the author found was 1510 fps from the same barrel length in a 1938 Remington catalog. Nothing exceeded that until 1963. Some of the velocities dropped over time (1950s) and were reporting speeds in the 1450 fps range or less from 8 3/8” barrels.

When Remington introduced 158 grain jacketed bullets in 1963 they claimed 1550 fps from a 8 3/8” barrel. That is faster than even Keith’s reported speed of 1518 fps. Right? That supports what I wrote.

So much for your zero chance.


Keith’s article: http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/AmericanRifleman/Keith357.pdf

 

[AJC1]

Zero chance? Really? And you know what powder they use? Where does this insight come from?

My notes from the article are below. For clarification, the article looks at the ballistics of 158 grain bullets in the 357 Magnum as shown in ammo manufacturers’ catalogs (Remington, Winchester, Federal).

When introduced in 1935, Elmer Keith says the ballistics were a 158 grain bullet at 1518 fps from a 8 3/4” barrel (see the link below). The first published speed the author found was 1510 fps from the same barrel length in a 1938 Remington catalog. Nothing exceeded that until 1963. Some of the velocities dropped over time (1950s) and were reporting speeds in the 1450 fps range or less from 8 3/8” barrels.

When Remington introduced 158 grain jacketed bullets in 1963 they claimed 1550 fps from a 8 3/8” barrel. That is faster than even Keith’s reported speed of 1518 fps. Right? That supports what I wrote.

So much for your zero chance.


Keith’s article: http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/AmericanRifleman/Keith357.pdf

If you think 1968 is a benchmark for modern I guess your right....

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

If you think 1968 is a benchmark for modern I guess you’re right....

Remember Mark Twain’s advice about arguing. Just sayin’.

 

[Show Me]

While I appreciate the advice on other powders, I'm going to start with what I have on hand. Since I have 8 lbs of Accurate No. 9, I'm going to start there.

This is what I found on the Hogdon website. Their test barrel is 10".

Powder	1100 FPS	1150 FPS	1200 FPS	1250 FPS	1300 FPS	1350 FPS
Accurate No. 9			12.4	12.9	13.4	13.8

This is Hornady data using an 8" barrel.

Powder	1000 FPS	1050 FPS	1100 FPS	1150 FPS	1200 FPS	1250 FPS
Accurate No. 9	9.7	10.1	10.6	11	11.5

I do wonder why Hogdon says it takes 12.4 gr. to achieve 1200 FPS out of a 10" test barrel while Hornady only needs 11.5 gr. to get the same velocity out of an 8" barrel. I suppose it has to do with the powder burn rate. In any case, I'm going to start with 9.7 gr. and work up to see what happens in my S&W 681 with 4" barrel. I have a 6" barrel S&W model 19, but don't shoot a lot of magnum loads in that gun. How does that sound?

Well they weren't tested with the same lot number powder and different barrels on different days with different equipment ECT.

 

[IWAC]

What velocity are you using for .357 loads? I'm trying to decide where to start, but velocities are all over the place for the powders I've got -- Accurate No. 9, H110, HP-38, CFE Pistol and Titegroup. I've got 125 and 158 gr. Hornady XTP bullets. I want something in the Goldilocks range, adequate velocity so you can tell you're shooting a .357, not 38 special, but not so much that its too snappy to shoot regularly.

I guess I'm one of the persons who "don't get their Money's worth" from my 357s."
In an article in HANDLOADER magazine several years ago, which dealt with .38 Spl. +P loads, it was found that XTPs were "stout" bullets, and need a minimum of 850 fps to expand reliably. I've never shot XTPs, but feel velocities of 850-1,000fps are plenty for any reasonable use. That level may be hotter than +P, but in most cases, less than 357 starting loads. Recoil is there, but so is performance(expansion). My go-to load for everything for years still is 5.5 gr. Unique which chronoes 860 fps/150-160 gr. Cast Swc./4" barrel. It also expanded Speer 125 gr. JHP in water jugs very well.
I use Unique, Universal, AA#5, and just got HP-38 that I will be testing in all manner of loads. We shoot best what kicks us least! Any good manual will give you good loads, and I find useful Patrick Sweeney's advice given in his first reloading manual...to go from .38 to 357, just pick a good .38 load, and add 10 %. I agree, although others may not. Good luck in your search!

 

[fxvr5]

If you think 1968 is a benchmark for modern I guess your right....

The article also notes that Remington made a big change in how ammo makers reported the performance of their ammo. Up to 1976/1977 ammo makers were reporting 357 Magnum speeds in 8 3/8” barrels. But that wasn’t what most people were buying and LE was usually using shorter barrels like 4”. So Remington started to report 357 Magnum speeds in a 4” barrel. They show that the 158 grain jacketed bullets at 1550 fps from a 8 3/8” barrel now clocked at 1235 fps from a 4” barrel.

Remington was very emphatic to point out that the ammo did not change, only the barrel length. I’ve seen these catalogs and that is correct. Other makers followed suit and started to report in 4” barrels as well. That is the standard today. Check Remington’s 2023 catalog. It shows their 158 grain SJHP and JSP and lead bullets at 1235 fps from a 4” barrel, the same as since 1976/1977, and by extension, the same speed (of the jacketed bullets) in 1963. The 1963 data is ‘modern’ because it has not changed since then.

As an addition, boutique ammo makers like Buffalo Bore load that bullet weight to over 1400 fps from a 4” barrel. So they have improved on it even more.

And its 1963, not 1968.

 

[AJC1]

The article also notes that Remington made a big change in how ammo makers reported the performance of their ammo. Up to 1976/1977 ammo makers were reporting 357 Magnum speeds in 8 3/8” barrels. But that wasn’t what most people were buying and LE was usually using shorter barrels like 4”. So Remington started to report 357 Magnum speeds in a 4” barrel. They show that the 158 grain jacketed bullets at 1550 fps from a 8 3/8” barrel now clocked at 1235 fps from a 4” barrel.

Remington was very emphatic to point out that the ammo did not change, only the barrel length. I’ve seen these catalogs and that is correct. Other makers followed suit and started to report in 4” barrels as well. That is the standard today. Check Remington’s 2023 catalog. It shows their 158 grain SJHP and JSP and lead bullets at 1235 fps from a 4” barrel, the same as since 1976/1977, and by extension, the same speed (of the jacketed bullets) in 1963. The 1963 data is ‘modern’ because it has not changed since then.

As an addition, boutique ammo makers like Buffalo Bore load that bullet weight to over 1400 fps from a 4” barrel. So they have improved on it even more.

And its 1963, not 1968.

Rumor is bb uses lilgun in their 357 loads and the es/SD I see in tests seems to support that. Maybe I have rifle standards, but 50+ ES isn't exactly exciting. If one is shooting a pistol close up then one could argue it doesn't matter. In carbines at 1-200 yards it is way more apparent... anyway this horse is dead so I'm out...

 

[fxvr5]

Rumor is bb uses lilgun in their 357 loads and the es/SD I see in tests seems to support that. Maybe I have rifle standards, but 50+ ES isn't exactly exciting. If one is shooting a pistol close up then one could argue it doesn't matter. In carbines at 1-200 yards it is way more apparent... anyway this horse is dead so I'm out...

Rumors have no value. Only facts. Ask BB what powder they use and get back to us.

 

[AJC1]

Rumors have no value. Only facts. Ask BB what powder they use and get back to us.

I don't care

 

[Walkalong]

Well then that's settled, let's drop it.

 

[Barmcd]

After some more experimenting I've found a couple loads I like. They give me good velocity and recoil without being uncomfortable to shoot.

These use fairly inexpensive bullets, one plated and the other jacketed.

10.3 gr of Accurate No.5 with a Zero 125 gr jacketed soft point bullet gives me an average velocity over 1200 FPS. This combo yielded very consistent velocities.
11.9 gr of Accurate No.9 with a Berry's 158 grain copper plated bullet yields an average velocity of 1100 FPS without coming close to the max velocity of the bullet. This load also produces pretty consistent velocities'

I have not yet found what I'm looking for with the Hornady 158 gr XTP.

12.9 gr of Accurate No.9 and a 158 gr XTP give me a velocity of 1200 FPS, but they have been wildly inconsistent with ES over 150 and SD averaging 100. The velocity tracks with those spreads.
18.9 gr of H110 with a 158 XTP gives me high, consistent velocities, but its a hand-full to shoot. That's a Hornady load, which is quite a bit higher than the Hogdon data center suggests.

I still need to try CFE Pistol and Titegroup with the XTP bullet, but I'm pretty happy with the 125 gr Zero JSP and Accurate No.5.

I don't shoot a lot of 357 Mag, probably only a few hundred a year. Outside of load development, I've shot half a box so far this month.

 

[Show Me]

Heavy duty 38 load with 2400 is spunky and usefull. And a bit of old school

 

[Barmcd]

Heavy duty 38 load with 2400 is spunky and usefull. And a bit of old school

I wanted to try that, but haven't been able to find one lb of 2400 lately.