357 lever action weak?

[oldpapps]

"357 lever action weak?"

Armed,

Two points here.

First, the action. A lever action (with very few exceptions) is 'weak' in comparison to other rile actions. I've never seen a .458 Win Mag chambering in a Winchester model 94. This so called weakness has no functional value in day to day use.

Second, moving a pistol round in to the rifle realm, that pistol round is weak in comparison. Adding a longer barrel will/can add velocity but only marginally.

Before everyone explodes, a 'hot' pistol round fired in a shoulder arm is 'weak' in comparison to what is normally fired in a shoulder arm.
The light, fast, handy action of the lever weapon is 'weak' when compared to a massively over built bolt action weapon.

Everything is a compromise in some way/s. Don't get hung up on what someone else says or tells you. Think for your self. The .357 Mag is a substantial pistol round. The same round at higher velocities is better. Firing from a shoulder weapon only makes it more stable. The only down side is the poor ballistics of the (comparatively) short fat bullet. They just shed velocity so fast.

With the proper bullet, that puny, weak pistol round out of that weak actioned rifle will take most every beast on this continent. Become very 'at home' with yours and smile as you take your game/fill your tags and the na sayers look on

 

[kBob]

Well it is only fair that if folks with Contenders and old Merrills (by whatever name) insist on shooting .30-30 in their handguns that .357 guys should take to lever rifles!

Sorry just had to tease a bit....

Seriously folks, relax a bit. I wonder how many deer in the 1880s noticed they had been shot with ineffective pistol rounds from lever action rifles?

Fred Bear used to live in the neighborhood and so there are a lot of bow hunters here abouts......I still think most of them would be better off with a .357 Lever gun than a stick and string, but they do bring home the bacon as it were.

I would be quite happy if my next center fire were a .357 lever gun.....whether I had to use it to hunt with or not.

-kBob

 

[saturno_v]

I'm not debating if the 357 is an effective deer cartridge...whithin its limitation, it is.


But let's not kidding ourself thinking that the 357 is "close" in performance to a 30-30.....not remotely true by a long shot (no pun intended)

Yes there are nuclear loads in 357....but guess what there are nuclear 30-30 loads too...

Many people mention the wunderkind Buffalo Bore 357 loads....yes but look at BB 30-30 load as well. (190 gr at 1900 ft/lb)

I saw people shooting 150 grainers in 30-30 at over 2500 fps out of a Win 94 with no sign of overpressure.

The 30-30 has higher range (much much higher in a leveraction fascion where it can fires a true spitzer BT bullet) much higher sectional density and more energy at the muzzle.....simply put is a much more capable cartridge...it is a true rifle cartridge where the 357 is not.

 

[ArmedOkie]

As an addendum, let me ask this:

I intend to use the weapon to kill hogs under 75 yards with iron sights and to plink. I have been pushed towards the 45 colt, which is understandable, but the 38 special would be much cheaper to plink with even reloading my own as i do

 

[tahunua001]

too weak for what?
marlin recommends the 1894 in 357 for black bear and deer and if you could get within muzzle loader range with some buffalo bore ammo I would wager you could get into elk though it would be marginal for the task unless you were a skilled marksman and disciplined hunter.

compared to a 30-30 or 44 mag, yes it is not as powerful but weak can mean a number of things to a number of people. I had some goober tell me that I shouldn't be hunting deer with 243 and to change to 300 magnum and went on to explain that the 300 win mag was the greatest deer cartridge ever designed...

 

[PonyKiller]

I would say with certainty, given your intentions it would serve wonderfully in that purpose. I've got my flame suit on, but i'd be willing to say that's roughly the perfect application for it. Suiting the need for a short range, quick handling carbine, being potent enough and accurate enough to do the job without any worries. Unless mythical hogzilla from tv shows then call in a fire strike from Fort Sill.

 

[OrangePwrx9]

I usually deer hunt with muzzleloaders. Patched roundball is a favorite projectile. However, the roundball loses velocity quickly and ft.-lb. energy figures at 100 yards are pretty "weak". Still, the PRB is a phenomenal deer killer when used inside 70 yards.

Same thing with your .357 rifle. At muzzleloader ranges, it will do fine with good placement and the proper bullet. The error would be in trying to use it for sniping at long range. The flat-nosed .357 pistol bullets shed velocity much faster than streamlined .30 cal. rifle bullets.

Using .38 spcl rounds for plinking in a .357 rifle may not be a good idea. Depending on the powder you use in your plinking handloads, there may not be enough gas generated to reliably push the bullet out of the longer carbine barrel. If your plinking loads are light and put together with a fast powder like Bullseye, you risk having a bullet lodge in the barrel....or so I've been told. One solution might be to assemble your plinking loads using a slower powder like Blue Dot. The slow powders tend to generate more gas over a longer period.

 

[ECVMatt]

I love the .45 Colt. If you reload, then the cost of shooting one goes down dramatically. If the rifle is more for hunting, then I would go for the .45. If it is more for plinking and less hunting, then the .357 would be my choice. We have captured some mighty hogs on the Red River and since we use dogs the .357 is perfect. If I were to stalk through the woods looking for hogs, I might up gun to the .45.

 

[tahunua001]

Using .38 spcl rounds for plinking in a .357 rifle may not be a good idea. Depending on the powder you use in your plinking handloads, there may not be enough gas generated to reliably push the bullet out of the longer carbine barrel. If your plinking loads are light and put together with a fast powder like Bullseye, you risk having a bullet lodge in the barrel....or so I've been told. One solution might be to assemble your plinking loads using a slower powder like Blue Dot. The slow powders tend to generate more gas over a longer period.

I have never heard of this happening. true a severely anemic load will do that but there is no reason that a factory 38 special load will not be able to generate the energy to push the bullet out of the gun. my brother has a 77/357 which has a longer barrel than most lever guns chambered in 357 and it has never seen a squib from any of the facotry 38 special that he has shot from it.

on a different note, your point of impact change between 38 special and 357 is quite drastic. at 100 yards the POI change in the 77/357 can be as much as 3 feet +/- depending and what load you use while sighting.

 

[WVRJ]

I can only go by my experience.I have a Marlin 1894CP in 357.With the Lyman peep sight I have killed whitetails out to 100 yards.I wouldn't try to stretch it any farther than that.I load 180 gr Nosler Partitions to about 1600(chronographed).I have a couple of 5 shot groups that measure about 1 1/2 inches at 50 yards.The combination is plenty stout for deer at modest ranges.The round is weak,but used with some sense it will get the job done.I have killed half a dozen or so deer with it and only had one that didn't drop on the spot.Can't ask for much more than that,especially in a light,fast handling carbine.

 

[ECVMatt]

I can only go by my experience.I have a Marlin 1894CP in 357.With the Lyman peep sight I have killed whitetails out to 100 yards.I wouldn't try to stretch it any farther than that.I load 180 gr Nosler Partitions to about 1600(chronographed).I have a couple of 5 shot groups that measure about 1 1/2 inches at 50 yards.The combination is plenty stout for deer at modest ranges.The round is weak,but used with some sense it will get the job done.I have killed half a dozen or so deer with it and only had one that didn't drop on the spot.Can't ask for much more than that,especially in a light,fast handling carbine.

WVRJ- that is nowhere near enough power. You need to sell that rifle to me and get something bigger! I would be happy to take the rifle off your hands immediately to provide you with the funds to buy a proper rifle.

Just kidding around. I have an 1894P and love it! I have been looking for the CP for quite sometime, but things haven't worked out yet. Enjoy that great rifle.

Matt

 

[VVelox]

IF one is considering .45 Colt and don't have something else already chambered in it, .44 Remington Magnum may be a better choice as it offers one a wider range of reloading potentials while still staying in spec.

 

[WVRJ]

ECVMatt,I love that rare lil cutie of a rifle.It has a lot of sentimental value...was a gift from my ex wife.One of the very few things she didn't get out of the divorce.I haven't shot it in a while because of what it's worth.But if the right amount of money came along...

 

[kBob]

One of my standard works around here is an ancient Speer reloading manual. Of interest is the sections on .357, especially as most of the top rifle loads are ALSO the ones listed as top for revolvers. They used a Ruger 6 inch security six for their revolver tests and a 20 inch barreled Win94 for the rifle tests.

Interestingly except for some of the fast pistol powders like Unique the loads in stuff like H110, 2400, and Blue Dot all listed velocities with the same bullets at 100 yards for the rifle that exceeded the muzzle velocity on the revolver.

Now there aint no 1000ft lb loads even at the muzzle.

But as to the underpowered well a 150 grain .30-30 has more power at 200 yards than the .357 loaded with a Speer 158 grain JHP at 100 yards from the rifle.

Does this make the .357 underpowered?

Hmm, the .30-06 with a 150 grain bullet is going faster at 200 yards than the .30-30 at the muzzle.

Does this make the .30-30 underpowered?

But wait! The .300 Win Mag produced more umph at 200 yards than the .30-06 at the muzzle !

Does this make the .30-06 under powered?

Fact is a lot of folks take a lot of deer with the .357 in a rifle and it seems to work just fine if the shooter does. I have no doubt that deer have, are and will be wounded with the .300 Win Mag every season.

Look my pick up truck could not compete on the Grand National NASCAR game, so by comparison it is under "powered" but it gets me my kids and my stuff ( even the loaded horse trailer) were they need to be when I need to be there if I start out early enough. Get inside the range you can for sure hit what you aim at less than 100 yards while wet cold hungry and nervous without support and the .357 Magnum is not under powered for white tail deer.

-kBob

 

[peacemaker45]

Weak implies a comparison, rather than an absolute. This begs the question, weak compared to what? To a handgun? Absolutely not. To a full rifle caliber? Yep, it sure is.

To a .30-30? That's a little more complicated. Even if you pick your loads carefully, and they start out with similar energies, that won't last. While the double thirty may not be the most aerodynamic rifle bullet around, it's far ahead of any pistol bullet, which fly about like tuna cans.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

[VBVAGUY]

As someone mentioned and showed in the TTAG weblink comparing .357 Magnum and .30-30, the .357 Magnum is a great cartridge and even better out of a longer barrel. However the strongest loading for it will only be equal to the weakest loading for a .30-30. It is what it is. God Bless

 

[hentown]

Hard to respond cogently to a thread that begins on a false assumption or statement of "facts".

 

[TnBigBore]

"Using .38 spcl rounds for plinking in a .357 rifle may not be a good idea. Depending on the powder you use in your plinking handloads, there may not be enough gas generated to reliably push the bullet out of the longer carbine barrel. If your plinking loads are light and put together with a fast powder like Bullseye, you risk having a bullet lodge in the barrel....or so I've been told. One solution might be to assemble your plinking loads using a slower powder like Blue Dot. The slow powders tend to generate more gas over a longer period. "


I have never had this happen either. The main problem you will run into using 38 Special plinking loads in your 357 rifle will be the soot ring left in the chamber. For that reason, I just use light loads in 357 brass for plinking with my Marlin 1894.

 

[coyote315]

I love the .357mag; and a whitetail is only a whitetail. That said, the marketing machine of big green and the other corporates will use litheograph print- looking pics in the glossies to convince you that while it WAS done with cast lead and low FPS in the old days, it can't be done without a belted-hyper-magnum-thermite round. And, it works. A buddy of mine hunting monster missouri dangerous game whitetails is convinced that his .280 will never be enough deer gun cuz one walked away that his friend "swears" he hit, and you have to kill deer with a belted cartridge.
Oddly, I took a nice buck on his property with a .308 at a tick under 400 yards with a stop-flop shot. Amazing that deer didn't laugh and walk away when I put the bullet through the boiler room, since my anemic 154gr bullet had slowed to like 2k fps before impact...
My long-winded point is; marketing has made a lot of poor consumer experts.

 

[saturno_v]

But wait! The .300 Win Mag produced more umph at 200 yards than the .30-06 at the muzzle !

Does this make the .30-06 under powered?

No way Jose...a 300 Win Mag does not produce more oomph at 200 yards than a 30-06 at the muzzle...not at all.....maybe some hyper specialized loads with hyperaerodynamic bullets out of very long barrels but these exist for a 30-06 too.....

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have shot thousands of .38 Special rounds from my Marlin 1894C and never has a bullet stick. Most are reloads and they are not at the top end of the range either. Shooting inexpensive .38's from that Carbine makes a fun day at the range alright. That rifle is one of my favorites without a doubt. My Henry in .22LR is right up there on the fun meter too.

 

[javjacob]

357 mag might fall a tad shy of the 44mag and 30-30 but it sure beats the 45 colt

 

[Texan Scott]

marketing has made a lot of poor consumer experts.

Coyote315 for the win.

 

[ArmedOkie]

Dont take it too seriously now, we're all just here kickin a can around until we can get back to the range

 

[Eb1]

If a .357 is weak in a lever gun. I wonder what that makes my .445 Super Mag 336?

I'd hunt deer with anything I could shoot that was legal. .357 Mag, .44 Mag, .32 H&R Mag, 30-30, 243, .25-06, .445 Super Mag, and on up.

To be honest. If it was legal, I'd use a .22 Magnum with shots over a feeder. Call it what you want, but I guess those who oppose that statement really hate the Game Wardens. Because the Game Wardens around here use a .22 Magnum to cull deer over feeders.
I think the .223 is a good deer rife out to 150 yards, and a .22-250 is a superb deer rifle. I am getting off topic. Sorry.

A .357 Magnum is a decent gun for brush hunts up to 75 yards.. I have said this a lot here, and I will say it again. I load one of my 30-30 rifles with a 125 grain Sierra FNHP @ 2150 fps. That is basically a .357 Magnum out of a 30-30. It has zero recoil, and is super accurate. I have that rifle zeroed at 75 yards with a Bushnell red dot. It has never failed to drop a deer up to 150 lbs. on the spot. I have shot deer in the neck, in the chest facing me, and also in the shoulder. The result was always the same. DRT.
My cousin uses a .357 Magnum Handi-Rifle and stalks deer. He always comes home with a deer. It is all about common sense with a rifle. Put the bullet where it counts. Come home with meat. Force a shot, and loose your dinner.