357 load: 125gr+Unique

[PinnedAndRecessed]

Am trying to find a load that works in a new GP 100 four inch barrel.

Am using 125 grain TMJ (West Coast Bullets) and Unique powder.

Have three loads: 7.0 grains; 8.0 grains; 9.0 grains.

Speer says 9.1 grains Unique is max. Lyman says 9.7.

Why the difference? If Speer is correct, then my 9.0 grain load is near max. I don't like shooting near max but with the strength of the Ruger I don't figure a box will hurt.

Any suggestions?

BTW, my earlier loads of around 7.0 grains were all over the paper.

 

[Johnny Guest]

Since you've already tried the 7.0 load and didn't like it - -

I'd begin at 8.0 gr Unique, with a stout crimp, and work up from there, perhaps .2 (2/10) gain at a time.

Best of luck - -
Johnny

 

[P95Carry]

If I read right you are loading for a ''generous'' mag output, as against ''target'' loads. Unique is a great powder, if messy - but IMO it is not at all ideal for .357 mag loads.

It is for me a bit too fast burning and I reckon slower powders do better - as well as bulking to fill case more. I realize you are wanting to use Unique but - if possible consider some alternatives like 2400, N110, H110, 269 etc... I think these will prove way superior. Even Blue Dot will allow some quite warm loads.

 

[PinnedAndRecessed]

So you wouldn't consider 9.0 grains Unique risky? But you're right, it is messy.

I've got a tightened 1911 that likes to jam after about 200 rounds of Unique loads.

 

[threefeathers]

I always have a can of Unique for grins and giggles but there is one round that it is really good for. The 357 Sig driven by 9 grains of New Unique is the cats meow. Sub one inch group at 25 meters from my 229.

 

[JNewell]

Aren't those just electroplated lead? Are you sure you want to push them that fast? I'm wondering whether you won't get a fair bit of leading.

 

[Black Snowman]

I'm with JNewell. Try to find load data for plated bullets. It's often MUCH differant than both jacketted and lead data. Most plated bullets are a very soft lead and will deform much more easily than even hard-cast lead will.

In my 9mm loadings using Rainier 124 gr TMJs a near max load gave me great accuracy and a max load openned up 5" at 10 yards and gave me the same, but more consistant, velocity.

Data I've seen says accuracy on plated bullets starts to suffer at more than 1050 FPS and leading begins to occur around 1300 FPS.

Try some inexpensive jacketted bullets in .357 Mag and save the plated stuff for 38s. I think you'll be much happier.

 

[Grump]

9 grains of Unique under a Speer 146-gr JSWCHP was the only load I ever tried that left cases sticking in an N-frame's cylinder. Virtually zero flash, nice dull orange from a 4-inch barrel. I misunderstood the story behind some fixed charge bars and used the one intended for light loads in a .45-70 using 300-gr lead bullets!

 

[stans]

Those are plated bullets and they may not take too kindly to a heavy crimp. The crimp can puncture the plated and then strip it off the bullet when fired. Plated bullets also tend to shed their plating when travelling much more than about 1200 fps. Unique is fine in the 357 as long as you are looking for reduced velocity loads, but it will not be safe trying to use Unique for full power loads.

 

[RON in PA]

Like the other guys have suggested, high velocity and plated bullets don't necessarily go together.

One .357 load I will suggest is 13 grains of Blue Dot with a JACKETED 125 grain bullet. Works fine in my GP.

 

[PinnedAndRecessed]

How did you know they were plated? I didn't even read it on the box until you brought it up.

Does West Coast bullets sells only plated bullets?

(You guys are good.)

What about Ranier Leadsafe Restrike? (Where do they get these names, anyway?) The box says "total copper jacketed." Are these plated or jacketed?

 

[JNewell]

99% sure that the "total copper jacket" is plated, therefore subject to the same considerations as the WCB bullet you mentioned. I have no idea what the "restrike" name means, unless it relates to something in the manufacturing process. Easiest way to check this stuff out is probably to check the makers' websites. The bullets are probably great bullets, just not intended for full-house, high velocity loads.

I *think* the marketing pitch is really airborne lead issues at indoor ranges. The copper plated bullets are cheaper than real FMJ but put much less lead in the air than regular lead (and don't present as much risk to backstops as FMJ). The rest of the sales pitch doesn't seem terribly persuasive, but YMMV!

 

[PinnedAndRecessed]

J:

I checked Ranier's website. You're right. The bullets are plated.

That ticks me off because the box says nothing about plating. It says jacketed. "Total copper jacketed", to be exact.

And their website says velocity should remain under 1350. Perfect! Now I've got to disassemble a box of ammo.

 

[P95Carry]

"Total copper jacketed"

Strikes me that is an all but fraudulent notation. ''Coated'' or ''plated'' might be much more accurate a description. Quite how a - what? - 1/10th thou or less can be labelled ''jacket'' I cannot see.

Jacket is synonimous to me with a seperate outer cladding ... like with garments ... I mean, you'd hardly call body paint a ''jacket''!

I think they should change that most ambiguous labelling ....

 

[stans]

Restriking a plated bullet means it is sized after swaging, then plated and a bullet that has been restruck is passed through the sizing die again after plating. This gives the bullet a very uniform diameter. Plated bullets that are not restruck tend to have a very slightly uneven finish and the diameter may vary just a tiny bit.

 

[PinnedAndRecessed]

stans:

I've got three batches of plated bullets: 7.0 grains unique; 8.0 grains unique; 9.0 grains unique.

According to my Speer manual, 9.1 unique is max with 1390 fps.

According to my Lyman manual, 9.7 unique is max with 1359 fps.

According to the bullet manufacturers website: "Q. Do your bullets have ANY velocity restrictions? A. In general, our bullets typically perform their best when shot at velocities no greater than 1,350 to 1,400 Feet per second (FPS)."

I'm wondering if pushing the bullets with 9.0 grains unique would produce excessive leading or if I need to disassemble these bullets?

 

[JNewell]

Plated bullets that are not restruck tend to have a very slightly uneven finish and the diameter may vary just a tiny bit.

This is a question, not a challenge or a contradiction:

Since all of these are lead, and I think relatively soft lead at that, wouldn't they effectively swage to bore size in the barrel under pressure when fired, even at the relatively lowish velocities indicated? I'm wondering if the restruck thing is mostly hype?

 

[stans]

I have not yet tried the restruck bullets, so I cannot say for sure. I have tried Berry's in 357 magnum and 45 ACP. The lack of a crimping groove has proved to be a bit problematic in the 357, bullets tend to pull under recoil. They worked a bit better in 45 ACP, but I still get better accuracy from cast lead or traditional jacketed bullets.

Generally speaking, as far as reloading goes, plated bullets perform similar to cast lead. So loads that are safe for cast lead are usually safe for plated bullets. As pointed out, the lead underneath the plating is soft and the plating is thin. I am thinking those 9+ grains of Unique loads might be a tad more than the plating can handle, but then again your gun may produce lower velocities and therefore these loads might work ok.

 

[Tony Mig]

Most velocities recorded in loading manuals are taken from 6" barrels, the 4" barrel will produce lower velocities.
In my experiance, Unique is only good up to .38 + P velocities, using up to a 158 Gr. cast bullet. I'd save the Unique for .38 loads, and use Herco for .357 magnum loads. I use Herco for slightly milder .357 loads, and 2400 for full powder .357 loads, with the issues involing your plated bullets, I'd reccomend going with the Herco. Also, a tight crimp is neccessary to produce the most effective performance from the slower burning powders.

 

[PinnedAndRecessed]

Thanx for all the advice. I went to the range and fired the 125 grain copper plated bullets with 7.0 grains Unique, 8.0 grains Unique, and 9.0 grains Unique. Even though the 9.0 grains was close to maximum in at least one reloading manual there was virtually no leading. And accuracy was on par with the other loads.

My conclusion is that, as Tony said, the four inch barrel would not build the pressure of a six inch barrel (which is probably what the lab used).

The only problem was that all three loads tended to print high at 25 yards. I think I'll spring for a taller front sight. What think ye?

 

[GooseGestapo]

P&R

If you're using Speers data for the "GOLD DOT" bullets, your WCB and Rainier loads will be "OK".

From my experience with shooting Unique through the .357mag, your loads are probably OK as for pressure.

I've not gotten great accuracy from my Sec.6 -4" with the few plated bullets I've tried, so it may not be your Unique load thats the issue. (It's about a +P .38 load anyway at 7.0gr in magnum case).

My Sec.6 really likes a 147gr HPGC bullet I load (Lee 150gr HPSWC-GC) but much prefers the 158gr SWC-GC that casts to 165gr.

I use 7.5gr of Unique under both for ~1,275fps. and excellent accuracy (~4"-5" 6-shots at 50yds from sand bags, SWC is more accurate than HP version).

These do anything I need a .357mag to do.

Alliant#2400 will give greater velocity (up to ~1,450fps w/o leading), but I prefer the economy of the Unique, which I don't find to be particularily dirty.

But then I've said I prefer clean "scores" to clean "bores" before, too!

You'll find the 8-9gr loads much cleaner, but I won't speculate on the accuracy of the "Plated" bullets. I'm not too fond of the Gold Dots(EXPENSIVE! for a plated bullet), but have had good luck with the Rainiers in 9mm for short range loads (up to 15yds in NRA-PPC matches).

 

[JPM70535]

I have been loading various weight 357s using Unique for many years and have found the best overall load to be 7 gr unique pushing a 158 gr LSWC.
Any heavier charge always resulted in excess leading and ope.ned up the group size at 25 yards . I tried plated bullets figuring they could be pushed faster without the leading problem What I got was a slight reduction in leading but a group size that looked like it came from a Shotgun. IMO Unique is best reserved for reduced power target loads using bullet weights of 150-18 gr.

My choice for 125 gr TMJs-JHPs ( not plated) is Bluedot at charge weights of from 12.5 to 15 gr. 13.5 gr always turned in the best results, with accuracy dropping off after 14 gr. Excess pressure signs appeared at 14 gr, and muzzle flash became objectionable. Noth, these loads were fired in both a 686 4" S&W and a Colt Python 4" The 15 gr load was wildly innacurate and the cases were very hard to remove. Primers backflowed around the firing pins and in a couple instances started to back the primers out of the pockets( only shot the 15 gr loads once. )