357 mag.158gr RNFP lead bullet and HS-6 powder help

[larry7293]

In my Lyman cast bullet book it calls for a starting load of 9.2gr of HS-6 for a 158gr RNFP{linotype} bullet. In my Lee manual it calls for a starting load of only 6gr of HS-6 for a lead bullet of 158gr. Why the difference? I am going to be loading Missouri bullets Ranger{RNFP} lead bullet 158gr in 357mag. Which data do I go by? The Lee manual calls for a small pistol primer and the Lyman book calls for a small magnum pistol primer?

 

[USSR]

I use 9.2gr of HS-6 with my cast 158gr SWCHP's. Use a magnum primer with HS-6.

Don

 

[Rule3]

First LEE has never tested anything and is just OLD info copied from somewhere else

Lyman data can be pretty potent on some of their loads.

I would try the loads lust by Hodgdon first

6.0 to 7.0 gr HS6 small Mag primer.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

If you are punching holes in paper it is fine. If you want to kill something than perhaps move up,

 

[USSR]

Rule3,

7.0gr of HS-6 with a 158gr lead bullet in a .38 Special case is what I use, and is commonly known as the "FBI Load". It is simply a .38 Special +P load. Stick that much HS-6 in the larger .357 Magnum case and you essentially have a standard .38 Special load pressure-wise. No, Lyman got it right when they say 9.2gr.

Don

 

[ArchAngelCD]

While I usually recommend you follow the books no matter what I highly recommend using a magnum primer to ignite HS-6, it works much better. When I load 158gr LSWC bullets in the .357 Magnum I pass on 2400, W296, AA#9 and the rest and use HS-6. It's not that the others are bad choices it's just I really like HS-6 with lead bullets.

Lee complied their data from Hodgdon. They use light data to prevent leading with soft bullets that may not be sized correctly. If you check the Hodgdon site you will see the pressures they report in the .357 Magnum don't even reach .38 Special limits. (Same data as the Lee manual.) The max charge of 7.0gr generates only 15,500 CUP.

I have used the 9.2gr load and it's accurate in my revolvers. It's a good woods load. You can go higher if need be according to the data in Lyman. I trust the Lyman data since they do test their data.

 

[USSR]

ArchAngelCD brings up a good point. Some of the reloading manuals give you load data based on swaged bullets and not hard cast bullets, and their pressure levels are based on that and not the pressure levels normally associated with a particular cartridge.

Don

 

[RealGun]

I use 10.0 gr HS-6 with mag primers and Brinell 18 MO SWC that I coat with alox., wanting magnum level performance without going crazy with it. I have other milder loads for the smaller guns. This load shoots great in guns like the GP100 and S&W 686. I also use it in my 357 rifle, and it can hurt my shoulder without a pad..

 

[forestswin]

Don
I'm aware that Hornady's data is for only swaged lead because they don't offer cast bullets, and newer Alliant manuals only have data for Speer lead bullets, which are also swaged, soft lead.

And, I dont believe i have seen anything other than cast lead data in Lyman's manuals.
Are there other examples of data limited to cast and swaged lead?

 

[USSR]

Don
I'm aware that Hornady's data is for only swaged lead because they don't offer cast bullets, and newer Alliant manuals only have data for Speer lead bullets, which are also swaged, soft lead.

And, I dont believe i have seen anything other than cast lead data in Lyman's manuals.
Are there other examples of data limited to cast and swaged lead?

There's a ton of different reloading manuals out there, some by bullet manufacturers, some by powder manufacturers, and some by mold manufacturers. You simply have to look at the pressure level listed (if they provide it) or use deductive reasoning to sort it all out.

Don

 

[anothernewb]

I checked my notes. I have run fro 8 to 10gr in 357. with notes form 900 to 1100 fps. notes indicated that closer to 10 burned better and was more accurate - but I had leading in the throats in the GP100.

 

[Rule3]

Rule3,

7.0gr of HS-6 with a 158gr lead bullet in a .38 Special case is what I use, and is commonly known as the "FBI Load". It is simply a .38 Special +P load. Stick that much HS-6 in the larger .357 Magnum case and you essentially have a standard .38 Special load pressure-wise. No, Lyman got it right when they say 9.2gr.

Don

Perhaps. You, Arch and I have loaded them a lot, and higher with other powders

I just figure a new poster who asks about data for a 357 mag would be better off starting low and work up as we say.

9.2 gr per Lyman is almost max load for that bullet

 

[RealGun]

Perhaps. You, Arch and I have loaded them a lot, and higher with other powders

I just figure a new poster who asks about data for a 357 mag would be better off starting low and work up as we say.

9.2 gr per Lyman is almost max load for that bullet

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook range is 9.2-10.2.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook range is 9.2-10.2.

I think the operative word was "that bullet" in Rule3's post, at least that's how I read it.

I have gone as higher than the Lyman data but the results were very poor. There was a lot of leading and I have a strong feeling the pressures were too high too.

 

[RealGun]

I think the operative word was "that bullet" in Rule3's post, at least that's how I read it.

158 gr Linotype is exactly the load I was referring to. The OP wrote :"158gr RNFP{linotype} bullet". There is only one set of loads for a bullet shape at that weight.

 

[Rule3]

I do not know what expericance the OP has, so I would go on the light side and as always you can always work up.

What is the sense of loading hotter loads if all he is doing is shooting paper at 10 yards or whatever, Who knows? Only he does.
He can use whatever he wants.

There is always a nit to pick.

 

[RealGun]

I do not know what expericance the OP has, so I would go on the light side and as always you can always work up.

What is the sense of loading hotter loads if all he is doing is shooting paper at 10 yards or whatever, Who knows? Only he does.
He can use whatever he wants.

There is always a nit to pick.

It would not be nitpicking to point out the error in saying that 9.2 grain is near the maximum, something to be avoided, when it is in fact the actual minimum for the bullet in question. We're all just trying to be helpful here, usually in the form of stating what works for us, hopefully with some credible reference for the load.

 

[Rule3]

It would not be nitpicking to point out the error in saying that 9.2 grain is near the maximum, something to be avoided, when it is in fact the actual minimum for the bullet in question. We're all just trying to be helpful here, usually in the form of stating what works for us, hopefully with some credible reference for the load.

Keep on picking. I gave a published load from one source others from another, No 9.2 is not near max per Lyman (my bad) but it is over per Hodgdon. Even the 1.0 gr difference in Hodgdon is not gonna matter much at all. So it matters what source you go by,

I have no doubt the Hodgdon load is a light load but that is what we preach to folks

It/s no hardship for him to load a few at 6,. 7, 8, 9 grains.

 

[Steve C]

What you are seeing in the variation of data between Lyman and Lee books is a difference in philosophy in load goals and bullet hardness.

Lyman's philosophy is that if you want to shoot magnum cartridges their data should reflect a magnum loading. The Linotype alloy is a hard bullet alloy with a 22 BNH hardness. This type alloy can be shot to magnum velocity levels at a higher pressure near the SAAMI CUP max of 46,000. In fact the extra hard alloys will usually lead badly at lower pressure.

Lee doesn't develop load data for their bullet. They do publish a book using data obtained from other sources, mostly the powder companies which is why their data matches that published by Hodgdon. Hodgdons philosophy on lead bullets is that they are for use in Cowboy action shooting that is restricted to low velocity loading at lower pressure. This is why their d"ata and Lee's data is so much lower for the same bullet weight

The data below is from online Hodgdon data. Note the pressures at the maximum load is much less than maximum SAAMI 46,000 CUP's. Also note the actual velocity from a revolver will be quite a bit less as Hodgdon uses a 10" test barrel putting real world velocities likely less than 900 fps.

If your bullets are at 18 BNH you can use the Lyman data for load development. If they are the typical Cowboy hardness of 12 BNH you should use the data found in the LEE and the on line Hodgdon sources.

 

[larry7293]

What you are seeing in the variation of data between Lyman and Lee books is a difference in philosophy in load goals and bullet hardness.

Lyman's philosophy is that if you want to shoot magnum cartridges their data should reflect a magnum loading. The Linotype alloy is a hard bullet alloy with a 22 BNH hardness. This type alloy can be shot to magnum velocity levels at a higher pressure near the SAAMI CUP max of 46,000. In fact the extra hard alloys will usually lead badly at lower pressure.

Lee doesn't develop load data for their bullet. They do publish a book using data obtained from other sources, mostly the powder companies which is why their data matches that published by Hodgdon. Hodgdons philosophy on lead bullets is that they are for use in Cowboy action shooting that is restricted to low velocity loading at lower pressure. This is why their d"ata and Lee's data is so much lower for the same bullet weight

The data below is from online Hodgdon data. Note the pressures at the maximum load is much less than maximum SAAMI 46,000 CUP's. Also note the actual velocity from a revolver will be quite a bit less as Hodgdon uses a 10" test barrel putting real world velocities likely less than 900 fps.

If your bullets are at 18 BNH you can use the Lyman data for load development. If they are the typical Cowboy hardness of 12 BNH you should use the data found in the LEE and the on line Hodgdon sources.

Thanks. That makes sense

 

[USSR]

Steve C said: ↑
What you are seeing in the variation of data between Lyman and Lee books is a difference in philosophy in load goals and bullet hardness.

Lyman's philosophy is that if you want to shoot magnum cartridges their data should reflect a magnum loading. The Linotype alloy is a hard bullet alloy with a 22 BNH hardness. This type alloy can be shot to magnum velocity levels at a higher pressure near the SAAMI CUP max of 46,000. In fact the extra hard alloys will usually lead badly at lower pressure.

If your bullets are at 18 BNH you can use the Lyman data for load development. If they are the typical Cowboy hardness of 12 BNH you should use the data found in the LEE and the on line Hodgdon sources.
Click to expand...

Thanks. That makes sense

It may make sense to you, but it's misleading. The "typical Cowboy hardness of 12 BNH" is only typical because that is softest bullet that most commercial bullet casters offer. Did you know that the .44 Magnum was developed using bullets with a BHN of 11? It shot well then and it shoots well now at full .44 Mag velocities, but the commercial bullet casters are too busy selling you their high antimony super hard bullets and convincing novices that they need them. The truth is, the primary reason for leading is improperly sized bullets and the hard, waxy lubes used by the commercial casters. Got nothing to do with the above mentioned bullet using a linotype alloy, it would shoot just as well using Lyman's load data with a much softer bullet alloy.

Don

 

[Steve C]

My main point is that the Lee data and Hodgdons data for lead bullets was developed for cowboy action loads that have low pressure levels to comply with the games restrictions on velocity. Both of these sources do not optimize their data for velocity while Lyman does optimizes their data for velocity using magnum level pressure.

Unfortunately for those of us who don't cast our own bullets we have to use what we can buy from commercial casters. The best way to avoid leading is to match pressure able to obdurate the bullet base and fill the bore. This generally means magnum pressure for hard cast and lighter special load pressure for softer bullets.

 

[RealGun]

In my Lyman cast bullet book it calls for a starting load of 9.2gr of HS-6 for a 158gr RNFP{linotype} bullet. In my Lee manual it calls for a starting load of only 6gr of HS-6 for a lead bullet of 158gr. Why the difference? I am going to be loading Missouri bullets Ranger{RNFP} lead bullet 158gr in 357mag. Which data do I go by? The Lee manual calls for a small pistol primer and the Lyman book calls for a small magnum pistol primer?

I wasn't able to find any data for the "Ranger", which is not a name used by Missouri Bullet, only Graf's, as far as I could find. The key would be the hardness rating, which MO specifies as a BHN number. Perhaps it is on your bullet box.

 

[Rule3]

I wasn't able to find any data for the "Ranger", which is not a name used by Missouri Bullet, only Graf's, as far as I could find. The key would be the hardness rating, which MO specifies as a BHN number. Perhaps it is on your bullet box.

Au Contraire
I have several boxes of them. BHN 18

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=110&category=6&secondary=35&keywords=

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Yup, the alloy hardness rating is on the bullet page over at Missouri Bullets. The example is at the link supplied by Rule3.

I routinely use their BHN12 bullets in .357 Magnum loads with no leading at all. I only use the harder bullets in my Carbine.

 

[Galil5.56]

This concerns published .38 Special +P data, and is not a typo. It's .1 gr under max Hodgdon data, from their 1994 basic reloaders manual, and involves ammo I made in 1995 with HS-6 propellant bought in 1994, and shot the last of this ammo lot in 2010.

Load was 7.2 grains HS-6 158 grain Speer LSWC HP CCI 500. As stated, this is .1 gr under the 7.3 gr listed max.

Gun used was a 3" +P rated, S&W M60. Average velocity when shot over my Chrony F-1 in 1995, was 832 fps. last rounds fired from the same lot I made in 1995, and fired in 2010 over my ProChrono digital, was 866 fps. Manual lists 995 fps/19,200 CUPs from a 4" barrel. No issues at all, ever (it's published data after all).

Only load I ever tried, and tested that made better velocity was Hercules Power Pistol +P data for .38 Special. I used 6 gr, which is the listed max, and the same 158 gr Speer LSWC-HP. Same M60 got an avg of 927 fps. Very accurate, clean, great expansion, and obviously stout. Again, no issues at all.