357 mag 158gr XTP and H110

[ballman6711]

I settled on 15.8gr using the 158gr XTP/FP #35780 (which is different than the 158gr XTP #35750).

Looking forward to your range report.

chris

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

It's been a long day. Too much socializing with the neighbors, yard work etc. I did manage to get a new shooter to want to go to the range with me tomorrow. I consider that I win by itself. I did manage to get my work up done before all the distractions. Tomorrow I will be lighting off my work up. 5 rounds of H110 each from 15.0gr to 16.7gr in .03 increments. Hopefully it works out. I know the math doesn't work out so I jumped from .03 to .02 at the end. 16.5gr to 16.7gr at the end. I'm hoping such a large powder spread that a .01 difference doesn't really matter enough to make a difference.

H110 is not a very dense powder. That .01 will probably make a whole lot less difference here than in dense powders like Titegroup.

 

[buck460XVR]

A couple of replies has be second guessing my choice of powder now.

Why? In .357 you will not find another powder that will give you the true magnum performance that H110/W296 will give you, regardless of what others say. Now if you are not after that kind of performance, there is a multitude of other powders that work better than H110/W296. Those powders, while having a very narrow parameter, perform very well within that parameter. IMHO, anyone that owns and reloads for .357 needs H110/W296 in their stockpile, even if they only use it occasionally.

 

[Palladan44]

I wouldn't bother going down to 15 grains.
Old books I have also claim to go as low as 15 in this combo, and it is prudent to start low with published data.......BUT... Most of us agree that H-110 has a sweet spot between 16 and 17 grains in your combination.
Pay close attention to Your OAL (it should get you to the center or upper middle part of the bullet cannelure.
Make sure to use magnum SPP for ignition per data.
A good roll crimp into the cannure will allow this slow burning ball powder more time to fully begin to detonate, before beginning to push forward out of the Cylinder. It's well recognized that h110 in 357 if not crimped enough will be more erratic than ones that are crimped well. Crimp also can help prevent bullet creep from recoil, and bullet setback in tubular magazines of 357 leverguns.
Use matching headstamp once fired brass, or new brass. Or even better,, trim your brass for best results. I'd start at 16 and work up.
In this combo I settled on 16.5gr. as 17 yielded no increase in velocity, but just sharper recoil and a touch more flash..... I'm willing to bet a lot of you have been here on this one...

 

[Obturation]

I've always had best results right at or near max when using h110/w296. I use several pounds of h110 per year , it meters well and gives best velocity for heavier bullets. Don't load below recommend minimum and use a mag primer (or srp) . I usually back off max by a couple 10ths of a grain simply for safety, unless I'm looking for the absolute most I can get out of a given cartridge in which case I hand weigh each charge. I don't typically post my charge weights as what's best in mine is irrelevant to yours, you'll be working up anyway. I've seen several times guys will go over max book loads with h110 and get good results but only you can decide if you're willing to go down that road (I don't recommend it but most data is on the conservative side and not all sources agree on max charges ).

H110 isn't a powder for casual plinking , it's for full power and it's kind of a one trick pony- it does that one thing very well though.

All that being said, in 357 magnum I prefer 2400 powder. A little better accuracy and wider useable charge weights with full magnum pressures possible at the top end and reduced loads possible too.

Good luck, keep us posted

 

[Waterboy3313]

Today was a decent range day. The H110 is like a whole different gun. Its nothing like what I was used to. Keep in mind I started loading 38 special with lead cast semi wadcutters with titegroup. Stepped up to 357 cases and same bullet same powder eventually got into plated bullets then FMJ bullets still using titegroup. Today was almost kind of scary. If I ever went to the indoor range I would not want to be the guy next to me. I don't feel my accuracy was good maybe it was just my nerves trying new powder and bullet combo.

These were my usual titegroup and RMR FMJ loads

 

[Orendus]

Hey waterboy.

How are you getting those groups? Offhand, resting, what range?

I recently went through a similar process working up a H110 load with 180 Gr hard cast bullet. Working up my load ladder didn’t find much of a difference in velocity.

A lot of overlapping info. I ended up trimming cases, experimenting with how heavy crimp and focusing on trying for best accuracy (hard for me to do with a small sample size and big booming 5” barrel”

 

[Waterboy3313]

I shot these sitting at a shooting table using a pistol rest @ 20 yards. All cases were new starline. I also shot my heritage rough rider 22lr pistol today same rest same targets same distance. Results were very good if not my best. I don't think it was my shooting unless like I said I was just a nervous thing.

I cleaned my 357 last night but I did run 6 rounds through it before shooting the H110 XTP loads. The crimp I used was in my opinion pretty solid. Much heavier than I would normally use.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Today was a decent range day. The H110 is like a whole different gun. Its nothing like what I was used to. Keep in mind I started loading 38 special with lead cast semi wadcutters with titegroup. Stepped up to 357 cases and same bullet same powder eventually got into plated bullets then FMJ bullets still using titegroup. Today was almost kind of scary. If I ever went to the indoor range I would not want to be the guy next to me. I don't feel my accuracy was good maybe it was just my nerves trying new powder and bullet combo. View attachment 1037917

These were my usual titegroup and RMR FMJ loads

It looks like you had a couple decent groups there. When I first loaded with H110, it took some getting used to. The recoil and muzzle flip make it harder to get back on target, not to mention the difference in sound. Once you get used to it those groups will close up some. I would pick my best group(s) and load a whole batch with that amount of powder. That way you can really get a feel for that particular cartridge.

 

[Waterboy3313]

It looks like you had a couple decent groups there. When I first loaded with H110, it took some getting used to. The recoil and muzzle flip make it harder to get back on target, not to mention the difference in sound. Once you get used to it those groups will close up some. I would pick my best group(s) and load a whole batch with that amount of powder. That way you can really get a feel for that particular cartridge

I was actually thinking about doing that. Like you said it's a while different animal and maybe I just need to get used to it.

 

[Palladan44]

Here's mine, loaded about 200rds about 10 years ago and still use a cylinder or 2 of them every once in awhile. Stout, flashy and accurate. Firearm used was S&W model 28 w/ 6" barrel. Recommended for use at THE END of your range time, as if you have any leading or other fouling in your barrel from Cowboy/ target loads, 6 or 12 of these will clean that out.

 

[Waterboy3313]

Now that looks like some good shooting.

 

[Waterboy3313]

So I'm thinking I will probably load up a batch of 50 of my best group. I will take my time and try to get used to them. Then I will try to shoot 12 or so on the end of each trip.

I like the group that was 15.3gr and 15.6 the best I think. I will have to spend some time looking at my targets.

 

[Palladan44]

I believe they have 15gr. as a starting charge to aid in making up for various "fudge factors" that are out there. Some people may seat deeper than the actual recommended OAL, some people may trim brass and seat to the center of the cannelure (making effective OAL shorter) Some powder measures may be off or not calibrated correctly, and individual micrometers that measure the supposed OAL might have variance.. or whatever.....so I see the reason for 15grn. as the starting......
However, with proper OAL and everything else working/calibrated correctly, I believe the sweet spot is around 16.0- 16.7grns....unless I just got lucky and all of my 357 wheelguns were on the exact same page.....

 

[Waterboy3313]

I loaded 50 rounds this afternoon since all my dies were still setup I thought I would do it and see if I can get more comfortable this time. I really dislike shooting from a rest I think I would do better if I actually made a spacer for my table top to set my rest on. I had the rest jacked up as high as it would go and felt as though I was really trying to lower my body to get a good line of sight from my sights to the target.

Once again all dies were left as they were from the day before. I split the difference between my two best groups for powder weight. My powder charge was 15.5gr but I had a few that were 15.6gr. usually my OCD would have set in and I would make sure my scale read 15.5gr or else I would be dumping it out and starting over. I figured 1 tenth with this powder probably won't make any difference.

I used virgin starline brass and measured each case length for consistency. I think I was + or - .003. Seated my bullets for 1.580 OAL. Measured each one after seating. The range was 1.578-1.582" I would like to think that is close enough or better than what a lot of people would call good. Crimped with same die that was left in my other press just as I did the day before. Used federal small pistol Magnum primers from the same tray. I almost switched to the match primers but I figured it wouldn't make a difference.

Maybe one day this week if I have time I will shoot some or all of them. If I find I don't improve I can always pull them and try something a little different.

unless I just got lucky and all of my 357 wheelguns were on the exact same page.....

I don't know if it's just me or this Ruger but I've noticed that most everything I've loaded for it seems to like the lower to mid scale for powder I use.

 

[ballman6711]

I use W231 for 38spcl and light .357 loads. Some difference using H110

chris

 

[Waterboy3313]

So today I went to the range with a couple of friends. One guy shoots a 2 mile match with a .416 Barrett and the other is a pretty savvy engineer that knows a thing or two about a thing or two. Besides passing around everyone's guns and having a good time. I shot everything from my 22lr, 25-20 and a whole variety of cool stuff up to a custom built 6.5 (not creedmoor) of some kind and even a .338 Edge. It was a fun day.

I honestly think I don't like the H110 XTP combo. It was by far the worst shooting cartridge I shot today. Trying to decide if I want to try a complete new work up of say forget it.

 

[Palladan44]

I honestly think I don't like the H110 XTP combo. It was by far the worst shooting cartridge I shot today. Trying to decide if I want to try a complete new work up of say forget it.

When compared to what? Sounds like you shot it alongside some long-range highly tuned sniper Rifles today (wink w/ smile)
H-110 (WIN 296) will definitely give the highest velocity for the cartridge (other than maybe Alliant 300 MP) And ive always had great accuracy with it, for what it is.
That said, your combo isn't a great "target" round. It definitely won't be as accurate as wadcutters loaded in front of 4.0gr of W-231.
If you ever want to hunt Deer, Black Bear or wild pigs with your 357 Wheelgun, please consider giving H-110 and your 158 XTP another try, you will be glad you did.

 

[Waterboy3313]

When compared to what? Sounds like you shot it alongside some long-range highly tuned sniper Rifles today (wink w/ smile)
H-110 (WIN 296) will definitely give the highest velocity for the cartridge (other than maybe Alliant 300 MP) And ive always had great accuracy with it, for what it is.
That said, your combo isn't a great "target" round. It definitely won't be as accurate as wadcutters loaded in front of 4.0gr of W-231.
If you ever want to hunt Deer, Black Bear or wild pigs with your 357 Wheelgun, please consider giving H-110 and your 158 XTP another try, you will be glad you did.

I guess I would say compared to my typical range load. Keep in mind my shooting is all range time punching paper and the like. As bad as it sounds my 5.4gr titegroup and 158gr RMR RNFP FMJ. My accuracy with the last load mentioned is a tack driver for a pistol. Also due to my location it is not legal to hunt with lead.

Towards the end of the trip today I pulled my target stand up to 25 yards. I shot my tight group load, my H110 load and a Friend's load of blue dot (I think) as well as some unknown factory 357 loads that one of the guys brought. My titegroup load was by far the most consistent and accurate.

There was a red paint can gallon sized I ranged at 162 yards. We kind of took turns shooting it though an old Winchester chambered in 25-30. Then I used my TG loaded 357 rounds and managed to hit it 4 out of 6 times. I couldn't hit the bullseye at 25 yards with my H110/ XTP load.

I wouldn't mind shooting the H110 loaded XTPs if I could get the accuracy like I get out of my regular range plinking ammo. I don't know what to do to make them shoot better. I was thinking maybe I over crimped them?

 

[2ndtimer]

I guess I would say compared to my typical range load. Keep in mind my shooting is all range time punching paper and the like. As bad as it sounds my 5.4gr titegroup and 158gr RMR RNFP FMJ. My accuracy with the last load mentioned is a tack driver for a pistol. Also due to my location it is not legal to hunt with lead.

Towards the end of the trip today I pulled my target stand up to 25 yards. I shot my tight group load, my H110 load and a Friend's load of blue dot (I think) as well as some unknown factory 357 loads that one of the guys brought. My titegroup load was by far the most consistent and accurate.

There was a red paint can gallon sized I ranged at 162 yards. We kind of took turns shooting it though an old Winchester chambered in 25-30. Then I used my TG loaded 357 rounds and managed to hit it 4 out of 6 times. I couldn't hit the bullseye at 25 yards with my H110/ XTP load.

I wouldn't mind shooting the H110 loaded XTPs if I could get the accuracy like I get out of my regular range plinking ammo. I don't know what to do to make them shoot better. I was thinking maybe I over crimped them?

You may just need more practice with actual .357 Magnum full house loads. Your regular Titegroup load is more like a .38 Spec +P+, which might explain your improved accuracy with it. (Although, I am surprised at your long range success, since your muzzle velocity is probably barely 1,000 FPS, if that). Heavy bullet loads with W-296/H-110 tend to be very accurate, from a stable shooting position like a rest or prone creedmoor (on your back, knees up resting firearm against thigh and calf). Shooting them offhand from a revolver with the accompanying muzzle blast, recoil and muzzle flip requires a LOT of practice to build the skill.

 

[Obturation]

Heavy bullet loads with W-296/H-110 tend to be very accurate, from a stable shooting position like a rest or prone creedmoor (on your back, knees up resting firearm against thigh and calf). Shooting them offhand from a revolver with the accompanying muzzle blast, recoil and muzzle flip requires a LOT of practice to build the

I agree, I get great accuracy with h110 loads. Anticipating recoil may be an issue . did the other shooters try your load with similar results ?
Recoil is based on perspective, a guy used to shooting a 500 magnum would hardly notice the recoil of a full power 357 but the 22 lr shooter may be shaken up by your rnfp load. I would recommend trying again, maybe with a rest to see what it can do. Maybe the load is no good in your revolver , hard to say but my 6" ruger can manage a 3" group at 75 yards if I have a rest, shooting a full case of h110. Someone else could probably do better . if you determine it isn't for you, try alliant 2400, my most consistent and accurate 357 loads get 2400 and still feel like "real magnums" . one thing is sure, nothing is ever the same from one situation to the next. Never know where reloading will take you, that's half the fun.

 

[Waterboy3313]

Maybe I need more time behind the H110. I had 3 goals to accomplish today while I was out there. I had two rifles to sight in (new scope on one and completely new rifle) goal 3 was to get some time in getting used to these. I had originally planned on going by myself but ended up with two friends tagging a long. I kind of feel like having people there screwed me up. I was really at the point where I wanted to leave when #2 arrived.

When I shot the work up last weekend I was sitting at a bench shooting off of a rest. Today I was standing and off hand. I think my best group was probably 6 inches at 25 yards. Its better than I have seen some people do but I know I can do much better. Maybe I will load up a few more in .03 increments back up to the max published load data and see if it tightens up.

I got a little nervous last time. I was seeing primers flatter than what I have personally seen before. I did not have any sticky cases while ejecting them out of the cylinder. Probably just me being overly cautious.

 

[Palladan44]

Maybe I need more time behind the H110.

I got a little nervous last time. I was seeing primers flatter than what I have personally seen before. I did not have any sticky cases while ejecting them out of the cylinder. Probably just me being overly cautious.

It's good that you're being cautious and observant.
But, primers that get a little flat is perfectly normal and is expected with H-110. Im of the opinion that H-110 is a very, very safe powder for a couple reasons....1) I think a fully compressed load, (although over Book maximums, don't do it!) still will not create a catastrophically unsafe situation.
It might be a tad over SAAMI limits, but I don't really see a KB happening with H-110 that's over-loaded, unless something else is terribly wrong with the gun. (Again, stick w/ published data)
2) You can see the powder in the case.
16 or so grains of H-110 is visible in the case when you look just prior to seating a bullet. You can visually see youve got your charge there, and at 16 or so grains, you can't accidentally double charge.
Most fast powder recipes in 357 Mag, you can't see the powder in the case; for example 4.5gr of W-231 could be accidentally doubled, and STILL won't really easily see the powder in the case. With all powders Faster burning than H-110 (Ok and 2400) it IS possible to have a KB from an over-charge.

Use slow magnum powders with confidence!

 

[ericuda]

The gp100 soaks up recoil really well but I bet you are not used to the hotter 357 loads. A comfortable rest to sight in is important. Most benches are too low for pistol. I like a to rest my wrist/forearms on a large front bag and be at a height where I am not trying to cant my head down. On my bench I have to lower my chair way down. Shooting with the bag on a pickup hood is about ideal for me.

Not sure if you meant .03 grains or .3 but xtp's and 110 should shoot decent groups.

 

[Waterboy3313]

The gp100 soaks up recoil really well but I bet you are not used to the hotter 357 loads. A comfortable rest to sight in is important. Most benches are too low for pistol. I like a to rest my wrist/forearms on a large front bag and be at a height where I am not trying to cant my head down. On my bench I have to lower my chair way down. Shooting with the bag on a pickup hood is about ideal for me.

Not sure if you meant .03 grains or .3 but xtp's and 110 should shoot decent groups.

I meant .3. it's been a long day. I have a folding shooting bench and I use a Caldwell rest on top of that. The guys with me today were giving me some good ideas to modify it. I'm 6'5" and I would say I'm probably way to big for it. I always feel awkward and uncomfortable using it. I got a few ideas that should help me keep it portable and easier for me to not be so uncomfortable.