357 mag hunting load suggestion needed

[Katitmail]

No kidding this load can wake one up! Kicks hard, might need to think about different grips..

Anyway, results of my chrono, I did 3 batches of 6 with different powder load:

1. 16.5gr: 1157, 1175, 1119, 1135, 1168, 1196
2. 16.9gr: 1146, 1169, 1213, 1223, 1261, 1173
3. 17.1gr: 1182, 1132, 1175, 1192, 1156, 1206

And then I shot my target load in 38 spl:
714, 704, 695, 685, 732 That was like a rimfire...


Anyways.. According to Lyman manual 17gr oh H110 is a MAX. I already went little over but don't see much higher speed. Should I try and push bullet faster or #2 is pretty much what I'm going to get?

 

[Katitmail]

Also, take a look at fired cases. Primers kind of flattened out with "imprint" of half-circle from a gun. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Is it OK or too much?

 

[murf]

is there any way you can switch to cci550 primers? if you do, reduce the load 2 grains and work up again. seems you have hit a wall with the wsp primers.

murf

 

[Katitmail]

Actually, I specifically picked up WSPM primers.. Those are magnums..

Tomorrow I will pick up some TULA SP magnum primers as well.

 

[murf]

matching primers to powder is something the high-power rifle guys do all the time. a lot of handloaders don't realize that matching primers to powder is important in handguns, too.

murf

 

[ljnowell]

matching primers to powder is something the high-power rifle guys do all the time. a lot of handloaders don't realize that matching primers to powder is important in handguns, too.

murf

In many cases it can be quite beneficial. There are many things that people commonly brush off as unimportant in handgun reloading that are very important if you are truly looking to squeeze that list but of performance out of a load. Performance can mean accuracy, velocity, or even a combination of the two.

 

[Katitmail]

Ok. I don't understand. I used WSPM primers (winchester Magnum, not regular SP). Are you saying that CCI550 (SP magnum) primers might work differently?

P.S. Accuracy-wise - I don't know yet. All I'm doing is shooting through chrono to see how far I can go..

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I was about to suggest using a magnum primer until I saw you are using a magnum primer. I was thinking you weren't because of the high ES number I see from above. If it's not the primers it might be the powder charge itself. Triple digit ES numbers are not a good sign. You mentioned you are getting some leakage from your powder measure. Is that effecting the powder charge? Are your charges the same in each round?

BTW, I use nothing but CCI-550 primers when loading with W296/H110. I can't say if the WSPM primers are better or worse because I never tried them.

 

[Katitmail]

Ok, I think I'm going to do this:

1. Weight each powder load to make sure they all the same, load all with 17gr
2. Make 3 batches of 6, use WSPM, TULA SP Magnum, and I will buy 550. So, all batches will have different primers.
3. Chrono them starting at the same cylinder hole to exclude possibility of a tight throat or something like that..

 

[41 Mag]

Might as well put up a target as well, while you're at it. It'll save you from having to check the same load later.

 

[Katitmail]

I don't want to shoot my chrono

 

[Katitmail]

Picked up 5k brick of TULA Magnum SP primers today for $50 from armslist..

Loaded 6-6-6 as planned with different primers. 550, Win SP mag and TULA SP mag.

Tula primers is HARD it felt like I crushed some. But look OK.

Powder measure leaks some powder (H110 is so fine) but every drop measured between 17-17.1 I did make sure they all 17 grains. Also, in my reloading experience with 9mm/45acp 0.1 grain doesn't make much difference at all. I would think on 17gr load 0.1 grain shouldn't make much difference, but will see.

Will shoot all of them starting from the same hole in a cylinder. Should be able to get it done by end of the week time permitting..

 

[Kosh75287]

I'm a bigger fan of Alliant 2400 than H110/W296. I sacrifice a max-velocity difference between the two that can be lost in the variation between the flash-gaps of 2 different revolvers, and I can venture below the max charge weight (with 2400) by more than 3% w/o inviting hazardous ignition problems (H110/W296). This means that starting at the suggested "10% below max charge weight" w/2400 and working up to the accuracy "sweet-spot" or the first pressure signs is a safe and reasonable procedure. I wouldn't try that with H110/W296 on a bet.

I'D be inclined to use a hard-cast .357" slug weighing between 155 and 175 grains, and drive it as fast safe pressures and accuracy will allow me, using 2400, in the 13.5-15.0 gr range. If memory serves, "original .357" loads were approximated by 15.0/2400/158gr.SWC. It's hot, hard on the guns (MOST, anyway), and is to be used in situations where life (or wounded game) hangs in the balance. I don't know of a JHP/JSP currently made that I'd trust to expand readily but not disintegrate w/o traversing Bambi. There probably ARE some, but I'M not aware of them.

Another load developed by either Elmer Keith or Skeeter Skelton the latter, I think), was 13.5/2400/173gr. SWC. I think Mr. Skelton developed it when the .357 was new, .357 brass was scarce, and society was FAR less litigious than it is, now. The other thing I recall about the load was that he seated the longer projectile further out (in the bullet's lubrication groove, I think), in .38 Special cases. I think Mr. Skelton did it to keep the very hot rounds from being chambered in archaic .38 Special revolvers (which would turn many of them into grenades I'd wager). He likely lowered chamber pressures a bit, along the way. I don't remember what the reported velocity was, but "lotsa" probably describes the range.

You won't get "old time .357 Mag" velocities from a 4" barrel, but you'll probably get enough that the deer won't be indifferent to the round's ballistics at impact, given good bullet placement.

Best of luck.

 

[Katitmail]

I feel really happy I was able to get H110 from local store. I sure would get and try 2400, but where to buy?

 

[murf]

katitmail,

does your revolver have a lightened mainspring? what is the double action trigger pull weight?

just trying to make sure firing pin strike is hard enough. that can have a great affect on primer performance.

murf

 

[Katitmail]

It's stock. I didn't measure pull, but 12 lb for sure

 

[ljnowell]

I'm a bigger fan of Alliant 2400 than H110/W296. I sacrifice a max-velocity difference between the two that can be lost in the variation between the flash-gaps of 2 different revolvers, and I can venture below the max charge weight (with 2400) by more than 3% w/o inviting hazardous ignition problems (H110/W296). This means that starting at the suggested "10% below max charge weight" w/2400 and working up to the accuracy "sweet-spot" or the first pressure signs is a safe and reasonable procedure. I wouldn't try that with H110/W296 on a bet.

I'D be inclined to use a hard-cast .357" slug weighing between 155 and 175 grains, and drive it as fast safe pressures and accuracy will allow me, using 2400, in the 13.5-15.0 gr range. If memory serves, "original .357" loads were approximated by 15.0/2400/158gr.SWC. It's hot, hard on the guns (MOST, anyway), and is to be used in situations where life (or wounded game) hangs in the balance. I don't know of a JHP/JSP currently made that I'd trust to expand readily but not disintegrate w/o traversing Bambi. There probably ARE some, but I'M not aware of them.

Another load developed by either Elmer Keith or Skeeter Skelton the latter, I think), was 13.5/2400/173gr. SWC. I think Mr. Skelton developed it when the .357 was new, .357 brass was scarce, and society was FAR less litigious than it is, now. The other thing I recall about the load was that he seated the longer projectile further out (in the bullet's lubrication groove, I think), in .38 Special cases. I think Mr. Skelton did it to keep the very hot rounds from being chambered in archaic .38 Special revolvers (which would turn many of them into grenades I'd wager). He likely lowered chamber pressures a bit, along the way. I don't remember what the reported velocity was, but "lotsa" probably describes the range.

You won't get "old time .357 Mag" velocities from a 4" barrel, but you'll probably get enough that the deer won't be indifferent to the round's ballistics at impact, given good bullet placement.

Best of luck.

14.5gr of 2400 with a 158gr SWC is a classic load. Also my favorite 357.

The 13.5gr Skeeter load was loaded in 38 special cases. He loaded them with the bullet crimped in the lower lube groove, that approximated a 357 case capacity. These were originally loaded for a .38-44.

 

[Katitmail]

Chrono results for last load. Just to repeat what it was. 17gr H110, XTP bullet.
All loads were manually checked on beam scale.
All loads were fires starting from a same cylinder in my 686

1. Winchester SP magnum primer
1223, 1196, 1226, 1268, 1304, 1231

2. CCI 550
1127, 1155, 1287, 1243, 1154, 1227

3. TULA SP magnum
1075, 1161, 1191, 1248, 1227, 1227

I don't know what it means, but I don't like it

 

[41 Mag]

OK, set the chrono aside load 10 of each of the same. Then go shoot some groups.

You will find that some powders produce great speads some horrible. Its the same with the accuracy as well. You will also find that tightening or loosening your grip can also influence those numbers.

Roughly your average is 1200fps, but you have no clue as to how any of them shoot. Missing at a consistent 1500fps is still missing.

 

[Captcurt]

I don't want to shoot my chrono

That is what they are for.

 

[Katitmail]

Today shot some more. Loaded with 17.1gr, CCI primers. It was colder outside, around 45F. I also increased barrel/cylinder gap to 0.006, (was less than 0.005 causing hang ups)

Result is pretty accurate 1150fps with XTP bullets. I shot some paper - groups good, but I can't shoot it cautiously now, it kicks hard and affects my accuracy in turn. I tend to change my grip before every shot. Not good. Need to do something about it..

41Mag,

I chronoed your bullets (thanks again!) with a same load. They were about 1200fps. Lead shoots smoother than XTP, different feeling recoil. I didn't try targets with them yet. But after 6 shots I didn't see much leading at all which is very nice. Will load a bunch for practice next time.

 

[gamestalker]

I've killed a few deer with the ol .357 mag. before. My go to combination, and that has been extremely effective I might add, is as follows.

158 gr. Gold Dot

H110/296 powder charge worked up good and stout.

CCI-550's

And a firm roll crimp to keep the bullets where they belong until fired, and to produce a good consistent burn.

My Son killed a big ol mule deer a couple years ago, and as luck would have it, the only firearm within reach was a K frame snub (66-5). This is for real, he shot this muley from about 150 yds.. He hit it in the head, right between the eyes, it flipped straight back on it's hind legs, and fell over dead. It had a rather large exit wound, about the size of a golf ball, out the back of the head, almost the top of the neck. Here's the real kicker, he was using my H110/296 loads, but it was only a 125 gr. XTP!

GS

 

[gamestalker]

I just noticed those ES numbers too? i don't get those kind of ES numbers with my H110/296 loads. I don't use Win. primers very often, but maybe they don't light H110 up as consistently?

How snug is your roll crimp? I crimp mine really tight, probably a bit over board, but that could be a factor I suppose?

As for the powder charge, I probably shouldn't post that here, but I do run them a bit warmer. And not just because I like them full throttle, which I do, but I've found H110/296 to operate at it's best when actually worked up. When my CCi-550's are filling the primer pocket up pretty good, my chrony numbers settle down, a lot more consistent. My primer pockets go bad faster, obviously, but for a hunting or DS load, this isn't a priority of mine.

But I also noticed a difference with various head stamps, and with nickel plated brass. RP brass didn't produce as consistent numbers, where as Win and Starline have been very good, Nickel plated Win. and Fed brass also produced lower ES numbers. I don't know much about internal ballistics, but my impression was that the thicker and harder brass, the crimp is holding on a little longer, thus maybe allowing for a more consistent ignition and burn?

Also, maybe measure those XTP's to see if they are consistently .357" or maybe smaller, I've had some that were a bit under .357". FYI, I've had the best chrony numbers with Gold Dots also.

So this is another consideration I guess. Maybe Gold Dots, which I think are harder than XTP's, have some effect on performance. BTW, I discovered this when I was pulling some Gold Dots and XTP's a while back, and the XTP's were deforming. I couldn't get the collet to hold onto them, it was striping some jacket off also. So I had to crank it down pretty good, and even tough they did pull, they were stretching and mashing as well. Where as the Gold Dots were clearly much harder to deform, I don't think I could have deformed them if I tried actually. The collet would stop dead when tightening it down in them, the XTP's were actually kind of hard to know when I had enough tork on them, thus I had to be careful not to destroy them. That copper plating is pretty darn thick.

GS

 

[Katitmail]

gamestalker,

This last chrono was with pretty good SD. Within 30fps. All was with CCI primers and Starline brass. Sppeds went down a little, but I'm not sure if it was because of temperature (colder) or because I slightly increased cylinder/barrel gap.

I'm also thinking about working it up a little. Book says 17gr max. I'm at 17.1 and it's 1150fps. Where should I stop? Can I get up to 1300fps with 4 inch barrel? I'm just not sure if I need to work it up.

 

[jwrowland77]

I'm hoping to take my first ever deer with a revolver this weekend. If I can, I'll have to write up a post results, bullet recovery if possible, etc.