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357 mag powder

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Bogeyman68, Feb 9, 2020.

  1. Bogeyman68

    Bogeyman68 Member

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    Had been using Titegroup for my 357 and 38 loads. Recently had a reloading shop owner tell me that Titegroup was not good and actually dangerous for the 357 due to case volume. He recommended 2400 which I purchased. Loads seem fine the only thing is the amount loaded per pound vs Titegroup. Any opinions?
     
  2. ColtPythonElite

    ColtPythonElite Member

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    Yep, I don't use much 2400 for that reason. If I had to pick one .357 powder it would be Unique. I also like BE-86 and Power Pistol.
     
  3. Fine Figure of a Man

    Fine Figure of a Man Member

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    Lots of powders are dangerous if you double the load, Titegroup is just one of them.
     
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  4. AJC1

    AJC1 Member

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    2400 will give you a much better case fill. It's a lot slower powder and with a long barrel you will get higher velocity.

    There is nothing directly dangerous about tightgroup other than you can double and triple charge a 357 cartridge. That possibility scares a lot of people because mistakes are made. If your target shooting then the reduced cost of tightgroup, its clean burn and case position insensitive. Bullseye is similar in burn speed and people use a ton of that for the same reasons.
     
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  5. Bill M.

    Bill M. Member

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    Blue dot makes a nice .357 load.
     
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  6. doubleh

    doubleh Member

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    Without recommending any powder I have to say if you double charge a load it's your fault. Pay attention and don't let you mind wander on to other things while reloading. A good overhead light and a look in each case after charging goes a long way in preventing errors. I use two loading block just to help me out. Empties in one and another to receive the charged case keeps me from accidentally picking up a previously charged case. I look into the case as I'm placing it in the charged case block and have managed to never blow up a gun using this procedure.This may not be for everybody but it works for me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
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  7. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    I don't care so much for TG in revolver cartridges, mostly because of case fill, and because it seems to run hot... 50 rounds through the .44SPC and the pistol is HOT! Unique was always my go-to in the .38/.357, and continues to be in my other revolver stuffs (.41 and .45.) Nice thing about Unique is the wide range of loading data for it, particularly in big Magnum revolver cases. It's relatively inexpensive (comparable loads use 40%ish less powder than say 2400 or W296,) and not so position sensitive as some other powders.
     
  8. gonoles_1980

    gonoles_1980 Member

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    That must mean it's really dangerous when I load light load 44spl with Titegroup. There's a reason I do a double look over with a flashlight up and down, side to side with all my loaded cases. I've load my 38spl with HP-38, Titegroup and now pretty much just use Bullseye. My 357 subbie with HP-38, N320, Bullseye, I primarily use HP-38. I've loaded my 5.5" SA 357 with HP-38, AA#8, N320, AA#5, Power Pistol and lately HS-6 (mag primers). I like the HS-6.
     
  9. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    .....except for 125 gr pills.

    As has been said, only danger from Titegroup is a double charge and that is not an issue with the powder, but one's reloading technique/practices. Still, like other faster burning handgun powders, it is not the ideal powder for legitimate .357 magnum loadings. It works very well for .38 Special tho.
     
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  10. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

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    The powders that one might use for full power loads are different than powders for mid-range or powder puff loads.

    Slower burning powders such as 2400 or Winchester 296, work best for full powder loads and some of these powder should not be down loaded much from published data.

    Faster burning such as Tite Group or Bullseye work best for light loads and get very dangerous if loaded over the levels of published data. As said, double and triple charges are possible if the reloader does not pay attention and these over loads are like bombs in a gun.

    This is one reason that some reloaders like to use a powder that fills enough of the case so that double charges are not possible, or at least makes a mess indicating a mistake has been made in the powder charge.

    So, you have to decide what level load you want top shoot and choose components appropriately. Use reputable reloading data.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
  11. tightgroup tiger

    tightgroup tiger Member

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    Titegroup powder does run hot in revolvers, probably does in semi-autos also but we can't touch the barrels while handling the guns with them.
    I use slower burning powders in 357 mag like BE-86, Power Pistol and even Universal just because I like that heat range.

    Mostly because slower burning powders are easier to set up my lock out die with.

    I use Titegroup in 9mm exclusively for 124gr anything. That's where it really shines.

    I burned a lot of Titegroup in 357 mag over the years, and never had any problems with it other than heat.
    I don't think it is dangerous at all, just be careful, as you should be with Bullseye or any of the other fast burning powders.
     
  12. The Bushmaster

    The Bushmaster Member

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    2400 for long barrels. W-296 for medium barrels. W-231 for short barrels. I have all three in .357 Mag.

    I use W-231 for .38 Spec., 9mm X 19, .380 and 45 ACP. I use WSF for my carry Kimber UCC II .45.
     
  13. ColtPythonElite

    ColtPythonElite Member

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    It makes no sense that Alliant has 110gr and 140gr. data for Blue Dot but a warning for 125gr.

    Before that warning, I loaded thousands of 125 gr JHP with Blue Dot using an older manual. Admittedly, the starting weight felt hot. I noticed the data reduced in the next edition of the same manual. After the warning, I swapped to Power Pistol for my hotter 125 gr loads.
     
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  14. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    I am of the opinion that progressive presses lessen the chance of double loads, but they do happen. Titegroup is as fast burning as Bullseye powder, when I ask Bullseye Pistol shooters their loads, those using Titegroup are within a tenth of a grain of the people loading Bullseye powder, plus or minus. I did test Bullseye powder in 357 cases, 4.0 grains with a 158 LRN, and it shot well and was consistent. That was a 38 Special equivalent in velocity. I used 3.5 grains Bullseye with a 158 LRN in a 38 Special case, comes out of a four inch barrel at 760 fps.

    I was told a story by a former employee of a Pawn Shop and indoor range. A customer came in and purchased a Colt Officer Model in 38 Special. He was an experienced rifle shooter but this was his first pistol. He asked the owner for a load recommendation, which the owner wrote something down like 158 gr L 3.5 grains Bullseye. The rifle shooter thought something must be wrong, the charge level was obviously too low, so he adjusted it, up! :eek: He then went to the indoor range and blew the top strap off this pistol where it was lodged in the range ceiling till the range was closed.

    The pistol owner, being so incompetent he did not know he was incompetent, thought the pistol was defective and went to the front desk demanding a refund! :cuss: Once the particulars of the loads were figured out, the Pawn Shop/Range owner asked the guy to leave and not return!

    I have used kegs of 2400 in the 357 Magnum and 44 Magnum, it is a great powder. Skeeter Skelton had a load, in 38 Special cases, of 13.5 grains 2400 with a 158 lead bullet. I thought that was too hot, but the same charge in a 357 case works very well.


    Code:
     Smith & Wesson M27-2 6.5” Barrel  
     
    
    158 LSWC  13.5grs 2400 R-P cases Fed 100
    4-Sep-05 T = 80 °F
    
    Ave Vel = 1245
    Std Dev = 22.49 
    ES  = 97.26 
    High  = 1285 
    Low  = 1187 
    Number shots= 32 
     
    
    158 LSWC 13.5grs 2400 R-P cases CCI primers
    9-Oct-05 T = 64 °F
    
    Ave Vel = 1273
    Std Dev = 44.03 
    ES  = 176.7 
    High  = 1372 
    Low  = 1195 
    N = 30 
    
    
    158 JHP (W/W) 13.5 grains 2400 R-P cases WSP                                                             
    5-Aug-06 T = 103 °F                                     
                                                                                               
    Ave Vel =1196                                             
    Std Dev =26.58                                           
    ES  =87.17                                                   
    High  =1244                                                 
    Low  =1157                                                   
     N =10    

    IPF1NO4.jpg

    Z6uAebC.jpg


    rZYx046.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
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  15. tightgroup tiger

    tightgroup tiger Member

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    It sure doesn't, I use Blue Dot and really like it other than the metering.
    I also don't understand that if it is so dangerous why Lyman puts it in the .357 data at all.
    Seems counter intuitive.

    Edit to add:
    Lyman's 49th edition still list Blue Dot for all their 41Magnum recipes.
    That warning about Blue Dot is one I don't pay any attention to.
     
  16. Fine Figure of a Man

    Fine Figure of a Man Member

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    I like Blue Dot for 357 mag, I never load anything lighter then 158 grain.
    Titegroup is economical, meters very well and has produced very accurate loads for me in every round I have tried it.
    It also burns very hot and eats up powder measure hoppers if left in very long so I have moved away from it.
     
  17. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    Lyman's 49th was published in 2008, about the same time the Blue Dot warning came out. Odds are it was too late for Lyman to remove or edit info.

    Warnings are just that.....a warning that something is dangerous for some reason. Could be legitimate, could be lawyers, could be erroring on the side of safety. One can choose whether or not to heed such warnings, but I do not advise making that decision for someone else, i.e., allowing friends or family to shoot load recipes included in the warning.
     
  18. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    I bought 2#'s of TG during the Great Powder Shortage, just because the guy was pulling it out of the box and my stash of Unique was dwindling. I found I really didn't like it that much and immediately tried to find a way to get rid of it. As I and others mentioned, it does run a bit hot... and that made it not the best choice in revolvers, but I have found it does work well... much to my dismay... in the 9mm, and to a lesser extent, .45ACP. I've burnt through 1# so far, and have 1000 9mm bullets waiting for the next round... I agree, it's pretty darned good in the 9mm.
     
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  19. lordpaxman

    lordpaxman Member

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    Titegroup is very economical, no doubt about that. And it was one of the few powders I could get during the great shortage, so I got a lot of it. Exercise good reloading practices, maybe even more so with TG because of it’s high energy density but it performs very well for light loads. 2400 performs very well for your heavy loads, along with several other slower powders. I understand powder is part of the cost per round equation, but I prioritize accuracy, metering, cleanliness, availability and several others above powder costs.
     
  20. sequins

    sequins Member

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    Titegroup is a pretty good powder but I don't like how it meters compared to h110 or AA#9 or #7. 2400 is also a good powder but again I prefer the AA## powders or H110 for the metering. I am not so concerned with the rounds per pounds so I don't use a lot of titegroup, but I prefer it to w231/hp-38 or bullseye.

    As for titegroup being a "risky" powder, no more so than any other. It's all deadly dangerous gunpowder and careless charge weights are liable to ruin your day powder not withstanding. You need strong processes that ensure you don't double charge or forget a charge ever, regardless of powder.
     
  21. tightgroup tiger

    tightgroup tiger Member

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    I never told anyone else to ignore it, I just said I don't pay attention to that warning any more. That goes to the part where you said-
    Maybe I'm misreading your post but I don't think so.
     
  22. Bogeyman68

    Bogeyman68 Member

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    I appreciate all the feedback. I had used Titegroup for a while. Was just concerned when he mentioned it being unsafe for mag loads. I will try some of the others mentioned in this thread just to check them out.
     
  23. Glockula

    Glockula Member

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    I will put a vote in for Unique and 2400. Plated and lead .357s get unique.

    Full bore .357 loads, mostly 158 jhp's, get a good charge of 2400 safely worked up. I load some top end 125 xtp's and they are accurate in the rifle.

    AA#9 is another good .357mag gun powder and sometimes more available.
     
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  24. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    I tried Blue Dot with cast bullets and it created a lot of leading in the barrel. Blue Dot worked well with jacketed bullets and magnum loads. I experimented with Blue Dot in magnum pistol and standard cartridges and decided never to buy any more as it did not work well under magnum pressures, and it was not very flexible.

    As for the warnings, what those ballistic labs have are piezo electric pressure gauges which measure real time pressure curves and the perturbations occurring in the pressure curve with time. These are things you cannot see with your eyeballs. I called Alliant about the use of Blue Dot in rifles, this is a practice that a character named Seafire promoted. The benefits were clean burning, low powder charges, and the occasional blown up rifle. Alliant said that with Blue Dot in rifle cases, the pressure curve shifted hugely with little changes. There is a thread around here about a Howa rifle blown up with Blue Dot charges. The poster thought he double charged the thing, but it is more likely one cartridge just had a phenomenal pressure spike .

    The pressure curve of smokeless propellants has an exponential slope. Humans don't think in exponential terms. Al Bartlett made the claim that "The greatest short coming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function.Mr Bartlett was a Physicist, and probably from his naval gazing viewpoint, he was right, but I think there might be more important problems. But, if we could see the pressure data we might understand why a manufacturer gave a warning not to use Blue Dot in one particular cartridge.


     
  25. rsrocket1

    rsrocket1 Member

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    The facts:
    Titegroup is not dangerous in a large volume case. 2 weeks ago I was testing some 10g Titegroup loads under a Lee 309-113-F bare base cast bullet in a .308 case with no fillers:
    KvZk4Bud_o.png

    Not very dangerous unless you are standing in front of the barrel when the gun is shot.

    Fact: He sold you a bottle of 2400. It works fine for full house magnum loads but is not versatile like Titegroup. Titegroup works fine for light to
    medium speed loads in lots of applications and is not position sensitive in a case. Titegroup is a dense powder and does not take up much volume in any case. It's easy to double charge a .357 Magnum case with just about any powder other than Trail Boss.

    Opinions: Now you're stuck with a pound of 2400 which is good for full house loads but not for lighter loads. Enjoy it and go buy your powder and get your advice from another gun shop.
     
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