357 Mag Vs 44 Mag

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Mike thanks for the thread link man.

JShirley
:
Because it takes 2 soldiers to rescue one fallen soldier so it's strategically better to wound than to kill.
There is NO historical basis for this as a driver for the 5.56*. More gunshop commandoing.

The .44 Mag could be more effective as a manstopper with a lightweight, rapidly expanding bullet.



*Instead, the reason for the 5.56x45mm is a 300 meter cartridge that can be carried in bulk, and was more controllable in full auto.

You're incorrect, though if you have source material that says otherwise it's welcomed of course.

"COL. MARTIN L. FACKLER, USA. Col. Fackler is a surgeon with extensive expertise
in military weaponry and ballistic wounds, and is currently director of the
United States Army Wound Ballistics Lab. He described the purpose, function and ballistic affect of military munitions and provided the military definition of
"assault weapon". Col. Fackler testified that such military ammunition was
intentionally less powerful and thus less lethal than sporting ammunition. He
explained that the purpose of such military ammunition is to inflict only a
wound on the enemy causing other enemy soldiers to stop their participation in the battle when they go to the aid of their comrade.
He explained that the
military definition of assault weapon was a "select fire" weapon which he
described as a weapon having a switch which would allow the user to shoot the weapon in the fully automatic mode (multiple shots with a single pull of the trigger) or in semi automatic mode (one shot for each separate pull of the
trigger). "

"STOCKTON -- THE FACTS by Martin L. Fackler, MD

Madman shoots 35 in Stockton schoolyard; 30 of those hit survive. That
would have been the appropriate headline. Why did the media dwell almost
exclusively on the five that did not survive?
A military type AK-47 rifle was used. Full-metal-jacketed military type
bullets were used. That 86% of those children recovered from their wounds comes as no surprise to those who understand this particular bullet's wounding potential. Those familiar with the international laws governing warfare recognize that the military full-metal-jacketed bullet is specifically designed to limit tissue disruption -- to wound rather than to kill. Purportedly
mandated for "humanitarian" reasons by the Hague Peace Conference of 1899, this type of bullet actually proves to be more effective for most warfare. It
removes not only the one hit from the ranks of the combatants, but also those needed to care for him.
Full-metal-jacketed bullets are prohibited for hunting; they are too likely to wound rather than kill. Most full-metal-jacketed AK-47 bullets do not deform significantly on striking the body, unless they strike bone. They characteristically travel point-forward until they penetrate 9 to 10 inches of tissue (if a bullet yaws, turning sideways during its tissue path, it causes increased disruption). This means that most AK-47 shots will pass through the body causing no greater damage that produced by handgun bullets. The limited tissue disruption produced by this weapon in the Stockton schoolyard is consistent with well documented data from Vietnam (the Wound Data and Munitions Effectiveness Team collected approximately 700 cases of AK-47 hits), as well as with controlled research studies from various wound ballistics laboratories."
 
Glockman19 is right on the money when he talks about wounded soilder issue. This is what at least is taught at the military academy.

However, we should remain focused on 357 v. 44 in this thread since I see 223 creeping in and then some other will as well.

357 v. 44
1. Simple: Both will stop a man
2. Yes 44 will bring down bigger body mass such as bear
3. Since talking six shooter 357 might not get chance to place all six to bring down a dangerous game.

Conclsuion: self defense...both are good. But if you want powerful bullets that will peneterate more (such hiting in the car, bullet proof jacket etc) 44.

A few days back there was a gun fight here, where two one time friends got crossed with each other on the road and decided to shoot it out. One had a 9mm Glock the other had .30 Tokerav. .30 guy got out of the car first and reach the other guy before he could exit the car. The Glock guy sitting in the car got chance to shoot once before .30 guy grabbed his gun and shot him 9 times, 7 from one mag and 2 from another, and then went off to hosipital.

Three days later. The guy who was shot once with 9mm is still critical while the other who was shot 9 times is out of hospital.

So better bullet more power counts.
 
Ok can of worms, but I bought a glock 29 10 mm for my UP Michigan adventures. Its small and packs a good wallop and I get 10 rds ( plus 1 15 rd full size ). I ve heard alot of people say this is an excellent setup for backwoods fun and a capable bear stopping device.

I am also looking into getting a 44 mag, just to add to my collection. But I find alot of the info here interesting.

Thanks guys
 
I reckon a 10/22 would kill a bear or even an elephant. All about shot placement (which is even more important to keep your wits about you when something is bearing down on you with obvious intent for violence).

I witnessed my dad shoot a deer last fall with a Ruger GP100. The 158gr .357 round went completely through the chest cavity at 50 yards. When we opened the deer up for gutting we had to hold the carcass up to allow the internals to drain out. The round literally liquefied everything in the chest cavity with the exception of a bit of lung. I'd say that's pretty darn impressive.

customizedcreationz, that 10mm will take care of anything in U.P. The bear will leave you alone unless you scare a ma and her cubs. I have heard of a couple wolverine sightings there abouts, and they do have a few cougar. Wolves will also leave you alone. Good luck, gorgeous and wild area most people in the US (including Michigan!) don't realize we have.
 
I think the people who've hunted with .22s snuck up and popped the animals in the eye, or missed a bit and tracked them for days. I cannot possibly imagine them using them on charging beasties.

Not sure a .22lr could possibly even kill an elephant.
 
Lucky, usually a bee sting won't kill a man. But get a swarm on you and its bye-bye lights out....:D
 
BOOM BOOM said:
What I want to know can the 357mag be used in the wild as a replacement of the 44mag.
No.

If it could, there wouldn't be two calibers.

The .41 attempted to bridge the gap, but it ended up doing neither as well as either. With the .44, you can always download it to where it's just a bit more than a .44 Spc. Or, conversely, you can use a 158-gr JSP or even hard lead .357 to burrow deep into your target if it's an animal (Massad Ayoob has used the 125-gr JHP on deer with success, though I'm not sure he'd recommend it for all around use.) With bear, you really want a .44, and you really want to know where to put the bullet. (Many people think the head. Good guess, but no cigar. Best bet is to hit the critter right in the mouth or nose, as the brain is directly behind the nose. Even a .44 will often ricochet off the skull.)
 
I guess what I'm really trying to do, is narrow the field down to one single caliber. So that when the..... hits the fan,I'll be ready for anything.

The one thing I don't want is a bunch of guns all in different calibers. I want to keep it simple. Thats why I was asking about the 357/44. think the 44mag is way to much for SD. this is why I carry a 357mag. But if I need a little more power I was thinking 357mag out of a Lever action.

I've read that a 357 from a lever is about the same as a 30-30. And I believe a 30-30 would bring down just about anything I would run across here in the states.

Now, Is this a correct assumtion on my part, or am I full of whats hitting the fan:)
 
Boom-Boom
I think you are ok with 357 for self defense. However, in case you need more power for penetration purpose then you will need 44. Do not forget that 44SPL rounds are out there if you want less power in you 44. With 44 you have nothing to worry about. I can say the same for 357 unless hostile is behind steel sheet such as car or in a similar circumstances.
 
BOOM-BOOM:

Good call on the 357 combo. That's one of my favorites. The 357 out of a lever is indeed very close to equalling the 30-30, although strict attention to proper slug construction is needed.

On top of the shared ammo benefits, think also along the lines of "rounds per pound" or "rounds per cubic foot"
 
From the buffalo bore website:

"About Buffalo Bore 357 Mag. ammo

Our 357 mag. ammo adds more power than ever before to the 357 mag. This ammo is safe to shoot in ANY all steel 357 revolver—this includes J frames. This ammo is no harder on your gun than any other normal 357 ammo. Please don’t phone us and ask if this ammo is safe in your gun. It is, providing your gun is in safe condition for use with any normal 357 ammo.

We don’t recommend this ammo to be fired in super light alloy revolvers as bullets may jump crimp under recoil, but the ammo itself wont hurt these super light weight revolvers. These revolvers are simply so light that the recoil is severe enough to cause crimp jump.

The below velocities are offered so that you can see what guns/barrel lengths give what velocities with this new 357 mag. ammo. You’ll notice that new S&W revolvers with short barrels are often shooting faster than older S&W revolvers with longer barrels. The new S&W revolvers are very good and are made with equipment that makes them more consistent and faster than the S&W revolvers of yesteryear.

Make special note of the Marlin 1894, 18.5 inch barrel velocities. Item 19C/20, supercedes 30-30 energies!!!

1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1476 fps

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1603 fps

3. 5 inch S&W model 27

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1380 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1457 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1543 fps

4. 6 inch Ruger GP 100

a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1707 fps

5. 18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!"

I have two 357 long guns myself that use the 180gr Hard Cast loads. A tricked out Rossi 92 20" stainless and the new Persoli Lightening with color case hardened frame, oct barrel 20".

From their website as well:
Photo of the 180 grainers.

Plenty of horsepower onboard?

Brownie
 
1985-6, Ft Sill OK. US Army basic training. Drill sergents given the task to train 70 some recruits, including myself, did in fact make such statements concerning tumbling rounds and wounding. I was there, I heard it, it is part of my history.

Heh. I like your "evidence".

2001-2002, Fort Benning GA. US Army ITB OSUT. Drill sergeants given the task to train x some recruits, including myself, did in fact make some of the stupidest, least-informed firearms-related statements concerning all kinds of stuff, including one DS claiming that "the AK-47" could fire 7.62 NATO, and he had done so. I was there, I heard it, it is part of my history.

Lucky,

Let's think about this. Just a bit. Maybe just a teensy-tiny bit more. If I say, "there is no historical basis for this as a driver for the 5.56", evidence from you contrary to this would be either high-ranking military types who would dispute this, or statements from historians who say otherwise. You do not provide this, instead giving me a statement from a retired medical type who was not in any way involved in this process, and whose work convincingly demonstrates that 5.56x45mm is typically more lethal than 7.62x51mm...but the quote you give is actually talking about the difference between hunting ammunition and military ammunition! What was your point again? :D
 
Now returning to the OP's question: .357 mag v. .44 mag.
(Hint: other calibers deserve a different thread.)

From what I read the 357 is rated as the #1 one shot man-stopper. That being said, then why is it when someone asks about carrying a 357 in the woods they're told that a 44mag would be better..

<snip>

Also what if I had a rifle chambered in 357mag, would that level the playing field any????
Speaking only for myself (ymmv):

I own .357 mag in revolver (currently mod 65) and carbine (1894C).

I'm very comfortable with either for what stalks my neighborhoods: home in the city to outback at camp,
but griz doesn't walk in either neighborhood where I live.

Why? The .357 handgun is comfortably controllable for double taps.
The carbine will add velocity and take any predator around here,
plus deer at 75 yds if I'm hungry.

If I decide to camp where griz walks (say, Northern ID or AK),
I may carry .357 mag for the 2-legged predators
but .45-70 for the larger 4-legged ones.

What's my point? Buy what ever you need for your neighborhood.

If you change neighborhoods, change guns.
 
The real problems with using sidearms chambered for larger than duty-size rounds are of size and controllability (which have already been mentioned). The .357 can be had in more convenient platforms, and has less recoil in similar-sized platforms than the .44 Mag.

When used against light-skinned bipeds- again, as mentioned- the .44 typically overpenetrates, unless it has been loaded with a rapidly expanding and/or fragmenting round. If you anticipate a very large-boned animal threat, a nonexpanding .44 round could be just the ticket, if you can't carry a longarm. If you CAN carry a longarm, carry more medicine: 12 GA slug, .30-06, .45-70, .35 Whelen, .300 WinMag (be sure to load decent bullets in the faster rifle calibers, or you might not get the penetration you need at close range. There was a study done by Alaskan wildlife some years ago, which found that many powerful rounds were inadequate penetrators at close range).

On the subject of expansion/penetration: Nem, you also have to be sure you're using the right bullet, from a carbine. That additional velocity could either make a much larger hole, or penetrate deeper. Possibly both, but you'd want a very sturdy bullet. EFMJ would be my first choice, if you could find it, since tests have shown it doesn't fragment, just penetrates deeper with additional velocity.
 
If you want NON-varmit preformance out of a 357 rifle, stick with at least 158 grain slugs. Two choices that I've driven over 2200 without them blowing up in any test medium I've shot them into: Hornady XTP FP and Speer Gold Dot.
 
"357 Mag Vs 44 Mag

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok I may not be the brightest star in the sky, so please bare with me.

From what I read the 357 is rated as the #1 one shot man-stopper. That being said, then why is it when someone asks about carrying a 357 in the woods they're told that a 44mag would be better..

My Question is, what can a 44mag bring down that a 357mag cannot..I realize it may take a few more rounds with a 357mag then it might with a 44mag. but its the end results that matter.

Also what if I had a rifle chambered in 357mag, would that level the playing field any????"

-------------------------------------------------------

I've not read all the posts and another may have touched on this my point, if so I regret duplicating.

You basic premise I highlighted in RED is wrong...

A particular load for a 357mag is rated as prime man-stopper.
Big difference

----------------------

"My Question is, what can a 44mag bring down that a 357mag cannot..I"

An innocent bystander after the 44 passes thru the perp!

--------------------------------------

"Also what if I had a rifle chambered in 357mag, would that level the playing field any????"


Rifle vs handgun...you'd certainly have sighting plain advantage if distance was a factor. A handgun hollow point bullet out of a rifle will certainly have plenty of explosive value.
 
If you want NON-varmit preformance out of a 357 rifle, stick with at least 158 grain slugs.
So, if 158s are minimum ("at least"),
what would be optimum?

In fact, imagine an optimum rnd
for revolver (say, a 3" or 4") and carbine. What is it?
(Yeah, let's play "if you could have only one" for a minute.)
 
.357s come in easy to tote, easy to shoot packages. .44, not so much.

I get about 1200 ft lbs out of my rifle, 20" barrel. Buffalo Bore shows about 1600 ft lbs IIRC which pushes the traditional 1800 ft lbs of the .30-30. But, I haven't equaled that from the rifle. Actually, most .30-30 factory loads are anemic and don't make much more'n 1600 ft lbs. BUT, the .44 out of a rifle is IMPRESSIVE out to a hundred yards. The .357 is plenty for deer hunting to 100 yards, though. I still consider the .30-30 quite superior for said application, though. I do get about as much energy out of my 20" .357 as I get out of my 12" .30-30 contender. That contender, loaded with a 150 grain Nosler BT, is pushing near 1000 ft lbs at 200 yards, though. The .357 is down below 700 ft lbs at 100 yards, advantage .30-30 even out of a short barrel. The bullet BC is just plain superior. And, hornady lever evolution out of a rifle is pretty impressive.

I think Buffalo Bore loads are pretty impressive as factory loads go and while I can equal them with my 180 grain load in a revolver, the powder I use to do it (AA#9) apparently is too fast for the rifle. My 158 grain load, a cast, gas checked SWC in front of 14.5 grains 2400 is quite adequate in rifle or revolver. Out of my 6.5" Blackhawk it makes 760 ft lbs and out of the rifle right at 1200 ft lbs. It's killed two deer out of the revolver and one at about 80 yards from the rifle. Out of a 4 inch gun it still gets about 600 ft lbs. It's accurate and a good load and since I cast the bullet, is cheap to shoot. I can load 50 rounds for something under $2 where Buffalo Bore costs a buck a shot IIRC. Yeah, I'd rather shoot handloads, thanks.

BTW, I carry 140 JHPs in my SP101 and 3" Taurus 66 for defense. Used to carry 125 grainers, but those 140s are more accurate and less abusive to the senses and to the gun and still make 550 ft lbs out of a 2.3" barrel.
 
I think it's important to also consider where you are going to shoot it. I've heard people say they got permanent hearing damage from shooting a .357 magnum indoors without protection. I can't imagine what a .44 magnum would do. I wouldn't use either round for home SD.
 
Jasper, I wouldn't use either one for Home SD. I use a S&W 457 45acp. But I do carry a 357mag
 
I think it's important to also consider where you are going to shoot it. I've heard people say they got permanent hearing damage from shooting a .357 magnum indoors without protection. I can't imagine what a .44 magnum would do. I wouldn't use either round for home SD.

Firing any unsuppressed firearm inside without protection will cause permanent hearing damage.

I've been present for both an ND from a .270 and one from a .44 Mag. Neither pleasant, but neither would have taken me out of the fight from blast and noise alone.

J
 
Most people dont load their 357 up for heavy hunting. THe majority of people seem to go favor the leightweight jacketed hollow points in the 110-125 grain range. Sure those are proven to be useful on PEOPLE. but if im in the woods and a grizzly comes after me. id rather have a 200-240 grain jsp or lead slug that will penetrate the heavy structure of a bear.

THough if i go in bear country, id be packing a .35 remington, which is better then both calibers in question.
 
But let's be clear: "bear country" is potentially very different from "griz country".

If I'm in black bear country (which I am), .357 mag is enough.

If I'm in griz country (which I'm not), it wouldn't be.
 
I might be off kilter here, but...I have yet to encounter any factory loaded 158 gr .357 magnum that replicates the original 1500 fps from a 4" barrel; too many idiots to potentially drive them through scandium framed & lightweight steel framed snubbies causing detrimental damage to their hands & wrists; given between a 180 gr hardcast lead bullet measuring .357" in diameter or a 300 gr hardcast lead bullet measuring .429" in diameter...gimmee the larger & heavier...

I've shot .44 mag 300 gr Hornady XTP's from my 629 PowerPort...I found them to have less recoil & muzzle blast than 240 gr standard factory loads...among the magnums, I find Remmie 180 gr sortpoints & Hornady 300 gr jhp's to recoil less than the 240 gr softpoints from Winchester & Federal and the 240 gr jhp's from Hornady;

with that said, my favorite magnum caliber is .357 magnum due to the practicality & availability of ammo choices...I am just starting to get in .44 magnum and I understand why alot of folks cherish the caliber...lots to offer if you want to go bigger than .357 mag
 
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