.357 magnum...a myth?

[Patrick Henry]

I'm very interested to get some reaction from the statements made on this website: http://www.brassfetcher.com/.357%20Magnum.html It claims that a .357 is no better than a 9mm Luger.

I think a more pertinent comparison is with .38 special. It's the same bullet. Faster yes, but is it really more effective?

Is the .357's reputation as "king of the street" fact or fiction?

 

[Zundfolge]

thats not quite what it said, it said:

A scaled-up version of the .38 Special, the .357 Magnum revolver offers ballistic performance on par with a 9mm submachinegun or other long-barrel 9x19mm firearm.

So thats a little more powerful than a 9x19 handgun (and probably an accurate assessment, although admittedly poorly worded).

 

[bakert]

At one time the .357 had the best one shot stopping record of any rd. period, but it can be a bear especially in some of the lighter short barreled guns. Blast and muzzle flash is intimidating to some people. Some of the newer hotter 9MM rds are pretty darn good too. Having said that I carry a .45 auto most ofthe time.

 

[Bob79]

.357 Mag is a great handgun round. In ways it is close to the 9mm, virtually the same exact size in diameter, and can be the same power.

An average 9mm+P is about 1200 FPS, in 124 grain variety. A 125 grain .357 Mag round that travels 1200 FPS is considered by almost everyone to be on the mild side, approaching moderate power. You can easily push a 125 grain Mag round to say 1400 FPS, and with JHP ammo, these speeds insure great penetration, with good expansion of the bullet.

9mm+P 124 grain @ 1200FPS=397 ft lbs

.357 Mag 125 grain @ 1400FPS=544 ft lbs

Plus with .357 mag you can go from 110 grain ammo, all the way up to 200 grain. With 9mm you pretty much looking at 115 grain to 147 grain, and usually the heavier 147 grain 9mm ammo doesn't perform as well as the 124 grain stuff.

9mm is not by any means a "bad" round to shoot, but the .357 Mag is superior.

 

[3 gun]

Stop wasting your time on that site. He can't even close his own conclusion.."In all, the .357 provides the same performance as the 9x19mm, but penetrates significantly deeper."

Deeper penetration makes for better performance in most loads, not the same.

The 357mag is a more powerful round in just about all loads.

 

[innerpiece]

apples and oranges imo....

barrel length, distance, load, target density.. nearly everything comes into play to make each situation different in the effectiveness of a given shot..

snubbie .357 vrs Glock19.... etc, etc..

I carry 9mm's.. I trust them to do the trick, and know they will..
I also know a .357 will do it aswell. but the weapon platform is not to my prefrence..

ip.

 

[grimjaw]

Stop wasting your time on that site.

Well, since you're not posting any results of your own, what else would you suggest from current work? He even takes requests.

Just can't please some people.

jm

 

[Jeff]

There are individuals who have been led to believe the 9mm is equivalent to the .357 in performance, just like there are individuals who have been led to believe the .223 (5.56mm) is equivalent to the .308 (7.62x51mm) in performance.

It's nonsense.

 

[rnovi]

Errr, I've loaded a 125 gr. JHP .357 Mag up to 1700 fps. Yeah, it's a serious barnstormer of a round and a delightful range-stopper. And I'm not certain I'd really want to use it for a defense load - although it would be effective.

In any case, a 9mm is a fine round but it isn't a .357 magnum properly loaded.

 

[Monkeybear]

A 9mm is .355 diameter. A .357 is .357 diameter.

With the right loads and a long enough barrel you can approach the same velocity of a .357 magnum round. A 124gr .355 going 1200fps and a 124gn .357 going 1200fps of similar design with both likely have the same terminal ballistics.

Basically the bullets are almost the same diameter so if you can get the 9mm to go fast enough you can match a .357 of similar design. The trick is to get it going as fast as a .357. Its impossible to do in a handgun.

 

[AStone]

I loved my 9. Fine, fine pistol. Dead on accurate. Comfortable.

But it wouldn't bring down a deer as easy as that .357 in a pinch,
which is one reason I'm selling it.

(The other reason is that I've finally admitted I'm a wheel gun guy.
I just prefer wheel guns over semi-autos. No apologies. Just reality.)

And there's just something sexy about that SW 686+ in .357.

Bigga bada boom.

 

[berettashotgun]

Ok, 25 years old 357 ballistic performance is now compared against recent 9mm ballistic performance. Hmmmm...... A 357 (yea- right) SIG round is a little closer to the "real" 357, but it ain't quite the same.
9x19 is a excellent pistol round , for those on a budget , wife carries a 17rd mag full of them on duty- everyday. I really enjoy the accuracy I can obtain from a revolver in the moderate 357mag loadings, but a 9x19 will NEVER be a comparative equal to a 357 magnum.
Max out a 357sig load as a baseline for the 357 mag and the 9x19 isn't even close.
Everyone wants numbers, but 124/5gr bullets at +P+ loadings are going considerbly faster from the 357 mag, followed by the sig, and then the 9x19.:banghead:

 

[Nightcrawler]

It's not that the .357 isn't powerful. It does, however, tend to be over-rated somewhat.

You of course have your 125 grain loads at about 1,400 to 1,450 FPS. This can be duplicated by .357 Sig.

Your 158 grain .357 loads tend to be rather watered down. 1,150 to 1,250 feet per second, usually. It's rare to find a 158 grain factory load with 1,300+ FPS velocity from a standard (4" or so) barrel. Note that one Cor-Bon .40S&W load launches a 150 grain bullet at 1,200 feet per second. The .357 will, of course, have better sectional density, but the .40 will make a bigger hole.

The 180 grainers are even MORE watered down, sometimes, despite being marketed for "hunting". 180 grains at 1,100 feet per second from a 6+" barrel just isn't terribly impressive, in my opinion.

There are several reasons for this, I think. First and foremost, most shooters are happy with 125 grain loads for self defense, so development of other loads has...well, not quite fallen by the wayside, but it hasn't gotten the research effort that other cartridges have.

Secondly, improvements in JHP bullet design yield excellent expansion from lower velocities, so the ammo is downloaded for less recoil. (Sometimes. Personally I can't understand a 158 grain soft point chugging along at 1,200 feet per second, but that load is available.)

Now, there are companies out there, like Buffalo Bore and Double Tap, that are loading .357 Magnum to its potential. In most factory loadings, though, I daresay it doesn't have much advantage over .40S&W or .45ACP +P, if any. If you disagree, tell me why. But looking at the raw ballistic numbers (bullet weight, muzzle velocity, kinetic energy), the .357 Magnum as most commonly loaded doesn't stand out especially well from the autochucker cartridges.

 

[Brasso]

I agree completely. None of the big 3 offer a .357mag load that even aproaches full power. At best I'd call them light medium loads. I still carry one though because I prefer wheelies and I like the extra sd of the 158gr load.

Even the 180gr castcore round from Federal that's supposed to be for hunting is wimpy. 1050fps? Come on! I can easily load that same round to 1300 and still be under max pressure.

 

[wcwhitey]

What everyone is concentrating on is the ballistic scale in which to two rounds meet. It is obvious that at the approx same bullet weight and diameter 124/125 grain and 1200 fps they would be and are very close. The difference that I see is that that is the upper end of performance for the 9mm and the lower end for the .357. When we compare newer factory loadings in the .357 they have been powered down to the point that they are just Magnum in name. If we compare some of the loadings from Corbon or Buffalo bore you will see loadings that are more on the line of what was intended for the .357. These loads will leave the 9mm in the dust. I don't know if it fear of liability by the ammo manufacturers or that some of the guns that it shoots are well past the 50 year mark but the .357 has been powered down for some time now. I may be slightly off on my numbers but I believe the original .357 loading was a 158 grain bullet at 1600 fps. No 9mm Parabellum will ever approach that.

 

[Bob79]

Nightcrawler-the original message/question in post #1 was comparing 9mm and .357 mag, NOT .357 SIG.

As stated in post #4, average loadings for 9mm vs .357 in similar bullet weights shows the .357 to be superior in terms of energy. This increased velocity also translates to better penetration, and bullet expansion.

And when the rounds are loaded up to "thier potential", then .357 mag is the without a doubt, the obvious winner.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Maybe we should send some 9mm and some .357 Magnum (say the nice hot 110gr "treasury loads") over to Don ([email protected]) at "the box o' truth" and let him settle this <grin>.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

The problem with the 357 is that many factory loads are only in the 1250-1300 fps range out of a 4 inch barrel. I recently chrono'd Remington Golden Sabers, and they were only around 1200 fps. Thats pretty sorry performance for a 357.

When you take the watered-down 357's and combine that with a short barrelled revolver, you lose additional velocity, and end up with a cartridge/gun combo that may even be less than a 9mm.


Using Winchester Ranger-T 9mm 124g +P+ ammo, I get between 1250-1300 fps out of a Glock 34. Thats pretty awesome performance, IMO, especially when you consider 17 rounds in the magazine. You can get better performance with a 357, but you have to pick the right loads and use the right barrel lengths.

 

[Eagle103]

I've also found the factory .357 loads to be awful slow. It's sad what the ammo companies have done to it although I haven't tried Buffalo Bore or Tap. I have no need to since my 1500+ fps handloads give me all the power I want.

 

[Marshall]

Winchesters 145gr Silvertips run 1300fps.

 

[Cosmoline]

The .357 covers a much broader spectrum of load combinations than any standard semi. And it bests them in another area--SECTIONAL DENSITY. Try loading 180 or 200 grainers in a 9x19 This makes he .357 a viable hunting round, esp. when fired from a levergun. For my purposes, I have to be prepared to deal with the threat of getting entangled with a moose. It's true the FPS on the heavy hardcasts are slow, but with rifle-like sectional density they don't need as much velocity to penetrate the hell out of a target.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I have read comparative chronograph testing of .357 Magnum from snubnose revolvers and 9mm from 3-inch barrels. (The length of actual rifled bore is roughly the same.) IIRC, the 9mm in +P loadings is very close to (but not equalling or surpassing) the full-powered .357 loads. However, the 9mm has far less recoil and blast (and more rounds) than the .357 revolver. (I own and shoot both.) When you get into longer barreled revolvers and heavier bullets, the .357 leaves the 9mm far behind. So the extra power of the .357 is not a myth; what to use depends on what kind of gun or load and the purpose for using it.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

---

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

A couple guys have made my point already: Factory loads suck for the most part.

Double tap fixes that.


10mm is another example of this.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Factory loads suck for the most part.

No, I don't think thats the point. A 125g JHP moving at 1200 fps does not suck, unless you are on the receiving end. The point is that 357 is not loaded to its full potential in general. But it is still a formidable cartridge.