.357 Magnum with lead

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AZAndy

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Missouri Bullets offers a 158-grain coated LSWC bullet that they claim is good for magnum loads. The Brinell is listed as 18. Would that be reasonable for, say, 1200fps or so? I'm planning on doing up a load for a lever-action rifle. Anyone done any lead .357?
 
One of my few "Magnum" loads for my .357 is a 160gr. LSWC, air cooled, plain based, WW alloy cast bullet with C-Red lube. I ran this bullet to max. loads of True blue for 1300+ fps. The important factor that allowed me to shoot these, leading free, is they fit the gun. My revolver has a cylinder throat diameter of .358"+ (not quite .359") so I sized my bullets to .358". A trace of leading in the barrel (easily removed with "normal" cleaning) but not enough to matter.

What type of coating is on Missouri's bullets? PC or Hi-Tek? The coating will allow you to run 1,200 fps without trouble, and 18 BHN is not necessary, just fit the bullet to the gun...
 
See if you can buy a hundred as a sample to test. I have gone to gas check bullets in my rifle. Most cast bullet designs that are plain base seem to run out of lube in the 24" of barrel I have. I use 358156 and lube all three groves. 357446 plain base does pretty well if lured the same way. I have not been satisfied with single lube groove bullets.
My experience only. Yours may vary.
 
I have used that very bullet and had to clean coating out of my barrel along with some leading. Bullet, throat, bore dimensions were in sync. I have used the bare lead version in both 18 and 12 hardness rating. The 12s worked the best, but ultimately all my purchased lead bullets now get an added alox coating. Missouri recommends 18 hardness for magnum use, but it seems like those are worse, perhaps less able to conform to the bore and rifling.
 
What type of coating is on Missouri's bullets? PC or Hi-Tek? The coating will allow you to run 1,200 fps without trouble, and 18 BHN is not necessary, just fit the bullet to the gun...
Sorry, I should have said-- Hi-Tek.
 
I have used that very bullet and had to clean coating out of my barrel along with some leading. Bullet, throat, bore dimensions were in sync. I have used the bare lead version in both 18 and 12 hardness rating. The 12s worked the best, but ultimately all my purchased lead bullets now get an added alox coating. Missouri recommends 18 hardness for magnum use, but it seems like those are worse, perhaps less able to conform to the bore and rifling.
That's very useful information, thank you. I may reserve these for lower velocity revolver loads, then, more like .38+P in a .357 case, since my revolvers are light and beastly with serious magnum loads.
 
RealGun may have it right. I have found the harder the bullet the less accurate and more leading. They do not seem to seal as well as softer bullets. Rifle or handgun.
From an 18.5" barrel we got poor accuracy with the harder bullets. The softer ones at around 10 work very well. Any lead or cast bullet will leave some leading. But it comes out with cleaning. I have never had to limit speeds to limit leading.
 
Get the coated bullets and you won't have to worry about leading. Though I would suggest 50 or so FMJ loads and a good cleaning if you haven't broken in that barrel first.

Often cast bullets are too hard on the commercial level anymore and the need for the bullet to obturate to the bore may not be achieved. The right load may insure it or not. When that bullet fails to seal properly the hot gasses will blow by and melt the lead causing barrel leading. Of curse this is only one cause of leading. Bore diameter and throat all have to be in sink with bullet diameter for a good fit. To be honest 12BHN is plenty hard enough for .357 loads.

I always suggest slugging the bore too insure bullet fit if leading shows up or accuracy is off to an obvious level if you plan on shooting non coated lead bullets.
 
That's very useful information, thank you. I may reserve these for lower velocity revolver loads, then, more like .38+P in a .357 case, since my revolvers are light and beastly with serious magnum loads.
My smaller, lighter 357s get 125 grain bullets and "short barrel" loads. My records indicate loads as "lite", "med", or blank for full power.
 
I shoot 18 Bruninell MBC coated 140 Zingers. They averaged 1284 fps out of an 8 3/8 barrel when I chronographed them. I haget shot about 4k out of a 7" 686 and have not cleaned the gun....yes, it is gun abuse...there is absolutely no leading in the barrel.
 
Read the "Technical" information at the Missouri website http://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php to get an understanding of the relationship between the hardness of the bullet and the pressure needed to avoid excess leading.

Hard cast bullets I have used will have little to no leading when loaded to full pressure in the .357 mag. but leaded badly when loaded in the .38 spl. Many years ago now I read about the need to use sufficient pressure to obdurate the bullet base in hard cast bullets and though it didn't sound all that intuitive I went to a 12.2gr load of AA9 with hardcast bullets that where leading using a 6.5gr Unique load. The leading disappeared with the AA9 load to 1,268 fps from my S&W 4" model 66.

If 1,200 fps velocity from a rifle is important to you it is unlikely you will generate enough pressure from the .357 mag to avoid leading with the hard cast bullet as a full power .357 mag load will usually run around 1,600 fps. It would be wise to do as Papa G recommended andget a sample packs of both the hard 18 BNH and the softer 12 BNH bullets to see which provide lead free shooting with your chosen load rather than investing in a 500 pc box.
 
I use coated lead 357's (158 gr SWC) in both revolver & 24" lever - no problems w/full power loads. FYI - last time I used the SNS brand.
 
Read the "Technical" information at the Missouri website http://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php to get an understanding of the relationship between the hardness of the bullet and the pressure needed to avoid excess leading.

Guys. Did you know Elmer Keith, the father of the .44 Magnum, developed his full power .44 Magnum loads using bullets cast from an alloy that had a BHN of 11? No, the above technical information will do little to nothing to help you avoid leading. More leading is caused by undersized and/or improperly lubed bullets than by bullets being insufficiently hard. The commercial bullet casters have done a great job of convincing novice reloaders that they need the excessively hard bullets they produce.

Don
 
I almost hate to say this. USSR is correct. I cast many 100s of thousands of bullets. Many .357s and .44s to specs that were asked for. I always got complaints that they were getting lead in their barrels.
When I would say they should use bullets that were not so hard they all said the same thing. "They are not magnum". Testing hundreds of rounds for accuracy and leading we found that softer bullets were always more accurate and caused less leading. All cast bullets cause leading to some degree. Those who claim not just do not see it or know what it is or looks like. We also should know by now that lead bullets cast or not do not cause high PSI. Lubes can make a difference. Softer lubes do not always mean less leading. The fact that Elmer used softer lead for magnum rounds did not mean he fought with leaded barrels to any serious degree.
The we hear the guy that just tosses a few jacketed rounds down the tube to clean the lead out. OK, That will surely create some PSI.
There is no cure. Coated bullets are not a cure. Proper fit and you will get less leading. By proper fit we can include the base of the bullet being soft enough to expand out to the rifling and create a gas seal which in turn will create less leading and much better accuracy.
Yes we can get too soft. And yes we can get too hard.
It is a fact that bullet companies attempt to convince shooters to buy their extreme hard cast bullets assuming they are just what they need.
The beveled base on those SWC bullets was created for ease of getting them started in your brass at the press. Nothing to do with flight. Some assume they are sort of Boat tail design. Fact is any good flat based bullet is actually capable of much better accuracy. But they are harder to get in the case. The ultimate cast bullet would actually have a concave base to assist in the base expansion. It has been played with but did not release form molds very nice.
The hard cast must be loaded at or near full spec to work correctly. That is what bullet companies assume you are doing. A medium hardness can be played with and still get good results. Stay in the middle with hardness and you can go hot or cold and have way less issues.
 
I cast the .358" 180 grs Kieth Lyman bullet. I use Linotype BHN 22, and a gas check. This is lubed with SPG.
The reason for the hard bullet and gas check these are fired in a rifle and revolver. The 26" barreled Thunderbolt runs these bullets out at 1,900 fps. This is 400 feet above the thershold for gas checks of 1,500 fps.
 
I cast the .358" 180 grs Kieth Lyman bullet. I use Linotype BHN 22, and a gas check. This is lubed with SPG.
The reason for the hard bullet and gas check these are fired in a rifle and revolver. The 26" barreled Thunderbolt runs these bullets out at 1,900 fps. This is 400 feet above the thershold for gas checks of 1,500 fps.
Is it the hardness or the melting point of the alloy that matters?
 
Get the coated bullets and you won't have to worry about leading. Though I would suggest 50 or so FMJ loads and a good cleaning if you haven't broken in that barrel first.

Often cast bullets are too hard on the commercial level anymore and the need for the bullet to obturate to the bore may not be achieved. The right load may insure it or not. When that bullet fails to seal properly the hot gasses will blow by and melt the lead causing barrel leading. Of curse this is only one cause of leading. Bore diameter and throat all have to be in sink with bullet diameter for a good fit. To be honest 12BHN is plenty hard enough for .357 loads.

I always suggest slugging the bore too insure bullet fit if leading shows up or accuracy is off to an obvious level if you plan on shooting non coated lead bullets.
I don't see obturation or "bump-up" of the bullet in the bore to be a factor at all with commercial bullets, usually hardness 12 or higher. It never works for me that I can tell. The solutions to leading I have been offered involve custom casting larger and softer than commercial offerings and throwing that big lead blob at a much smaller forcing cone, sizing the bullet down, not up. Couple that with maximum lubing, and leading might be under control.
 
Is it the hardness or the melting point of the alloy that matters?
As you are aware gas cutting is caused by undersized bullets. Cast bullets are poured to the pressures that the load will develop. The bearing surface of the bullet can develop fatigue in a long barrel and fail. I am going to experiment with the powdered coating process. It allows the use of WW alloy in high pressure applications. Harbor Freight has the gun and compounds.
 
Coated bullets solve many issues with cast bullets. I've been coating for 3 years and have done from bunny farts to full power loads without any leading in 9mm, 10mm and 45. Ive also coated and cast bullets for a friend in those calibers plus .357. no issues with leadand to date would number around 20,000 of my own coated bullets and many more that were Hi-Tek and that's why I suggest them.

Non coated cast bullets require a little more work sometimes to prevent hours of barrel scrubbing and soaking to remove lead. In most cases leading doesn't become an issue and a lot depends on whether it does or not. A 9mm pistol with a bore size of .355" shooting a load within published data from most any cast bullet company will most likely not lead that barrel.

Bullet hardness, obturation, and bore size span more than one gun type and different measures to prevent leading depends on that type and each gun Including chamber pressure and velocity. That's the reason why people have different experiences with what it takes in what gun and what accounts for leading and what doesn't. A forcing cone sizing bullets down too much can and has caused leading for by swaging the bullet down in some cases and gas cutting (even with harder bullets) can occur if it doesn't fill the bore well.

Different experiences often yield different results and add to the confusion of what cast bullet hardness should be. Not to mention reduced loads and the lube used. BHN, pressure and velocity as it pertains to leading was worked out in testing years ago. Factors in the gun and differing load often lead back to confusion as to what is good and what isn't rather than what caused it.

One perfect example of those changes is a larger bullet and barrel fit. It often fixes a leading issue that still may have been fixed with a softer bullet. Making a bullet big enough in a semi-auto pistol so that the bullet is swaged by the bore (slightly) often has the same effect as obtruation and eliminates the need for it. Yet that same bullet may raise pressures in another semiauto with a smaller bore size and cause more problems. That is an issue for someone with different guns and bore sizes and two different size bullets are needed unless the BHN and pressure of the load are used to eliminate that need by good obtruation.

From one of my favorite resources for compact and detailed cast bullet information.

Note: Lyman #2 has a BHN of 15
Approximate "Maximum" Chamber Pressure For Lead Alloys (PSI)

Plumbers lead, stick on WW 13,000 - (Black Powder Only)
Wheel weights / clip-on
25,000 - Non-Magnum handgun
loads, Rifles to 1,900 fps
Lyman # 2 (alloy varies in


Lyman cast bullet books)


35,000 - Magnum handgun &
rifles to 2,000 fps
Quench-cast WW (dropped


from mould into cool water)


48,000 - Magnum handgun
& rifles to 2,200 fps
Oven heat treated WW
55,000 - Jacketed velocities in handguns
and rifles with quality bore & balanced load


"A very common misconception is that leading is caused by the bullet being too soft. Historically, tin was used to harden bullet alloys. Today tin is used to lower the surface tension of the molten alloy and allows it to fill out the mould more completely. Antimony hardens lead alloys much more effectively than does tin, in addition, antimony allows the alloy to be hardened via heat treatment, something the chemistry of tin doesn't allow (and arsenic is even better for heat treating than is antimony)."

"The formula (from the pages of HandLoader Magazine) to determine at what pressure an alloy of given BHN will obturate the base of the bullet and seal the bore. If the bullet is too hard to obturate, gas cutting usually occurs on the base band on the non-driving side of the rifling and barrel leading is likely. Simply multiply the alloy BHN by 1,422.
Example: Alloy BHN of 12 multiplied by 1422 = 17,064. An alloy of 12 BHN should be used with a load that develops a "minimum" of 17,000 psi. Need more info on minimum / maximum alloy BHN? These Glen E. Fryxell articles explain alloy BHN in easy to understand language."

From LASC Website found here : http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm
More on leading : http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

MAin page: http://www.lasc.us/
A resourceful forum for everything about casting, loading, coatings, paper patching, and more at: http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/








 
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Thought I would throw this in to for reference from : http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

Common Bullet Alloy Hardness

Alloy BHN
Lead


5
WW (stick on) 6
Tin 7
1 to 40 tin lead 8
1 to 30 tin lead 9
1 to 20 tin lead 10
1 to 10 tin lead 11
WW (clip on) 12
Lead Shot* 13
Lyman # 2 15
Water quenched WW 18
Linotype 18 - 19
Monotype 25 - 27
Oven heat treated WW 30 - 32
Antimony 50
 
Wreckincrew, Do you powder coat your home cast bullets? If so can you share some knowledge with me? I am interested in this process.
 
Wreckincrew, Do you powder coat your home cast bullets? If so can you share some knowledge with me? I am interested in this process
Yes I do and I can. Its a fairly simple process. Depending on your OCD level there is a method or tweak that pretty much fits everyone. Shoot me a PM. Also much can be found in the Coatings and alternatives section on the Cast Boolits website found here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?184-Coatings-and-Alternatives
 
As you are aware gas cutting is caused by undersized bullets. Cast bullets are poured to the pressures that the load will develop. The bearing surface of the bullet can develop fatigue in a long barrel and fail. I am going to experiment with the powdered coating process. It allows the use of WW alloy in high pressure applications. Harbor Freight has the gun and compounds.
Let us know of your results! Some of us have many #'s of
WW ingots.
 
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