357 Maximum Super Blackhawk, please educate me

[Peter M. Eick]

I have had an interest in the 357 Maximum for a long time. Today I was hunting for nice N frame at my local friendly gun dealer and I found a nearly NIB Ruger Super Blackhawk in 357 Maximum. Well, its now my 357 Max.

So, I know nothing about single actions (DA fan from way back), but the dealer showed me how to take the cylinder out and put it back together. Looking at the cylinder marks, I would bet less then 12 rounds of 38 special have been fired in it. There was a light mark at the front of the 38 special and still some powder left in the gun. The rest of it is perfect and no flame cutting or anything.

What do I need to know about the 357 Maximum and the Super Blackhawk? The search function was not to helpful, so I open up the doors and ask for an education.

Thanks

 

[Old Fuff]

The .357 Maximum was made using a special, unique Super Blackhawk frame that was lengthened to fit an equally lengthed cylinder. The cartridge was similar to a regular .357 Magnum, but lengthened .315". Made from 1983 through 1984, with some 9,500 guns produced. Came in barrel lengths of 7 1/2 and 10 1/2 inches. Discontinued because of barrel throat erosion and gas cutting on underside of topstrap. Ruger collectors will snap to attention if they read your post...

Expect to be mugged...

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Old Fuff,

I looked at several K-22's today and none were in better shape then what I already had, so....

Now we have the Ruger Maximum. I have a whole directory about the 357 max at the office because I have wanted one for a while, but nothing at home and nothing really to the point.

What I have been able to pick up is mine is a first year production based upon the serial number. It is absolutely mint, but has been fired just a bit. What convinced me to buy it over another N frame is the finish is perfect and the condition of the top strap. All of the max's I have seen are flame cut to some extent and most have been shot a lot. I was kind of looking for a DW supermag, but this Ruger just "grabbed me". A nice one in great shape just could not be passed by. I will say this thing is HUGE. It is in the range of my 44 Walker.


I have learned over on the reloading board to avoid ball powders for the Rugers because they sand blast the frame and stay with the coarse flakes or things like 2400. You need small RIFLE primers and you have to watch the pressure signs on hot loads. Also avoid light bullets like the plague. If you stay in the 158 or heavy and keep to the flaky powders its a great gun and exceptionally accurate. I learned crimp is critical and a redding profile crimper is required. Reading the manuals I see that even RCBS recommends that you seat this one and crimp it as two steps.

So now I need first hand experience and comments from users. No point in me reinventing the wheel.

 

[444]

Edit: I guess you already learned most of this in the mean time.

The story goes that the gun and cartridge were designed for silhouette shooting. The intention was to shoot heavy bullets (like 180s) at more velocity than you could with a standard .357. So, a lot of people said to themselves, hey, if we can shoot the 180s fast, imagine what a 110 would do. Thus the throat erosion and gas cutting on underside of topstrap. Word is that if you stuck with the heavier bullets, this wasn't an issue. Other people say that it isn't an issue anyway. According to them the frame cutting is self limiting. It will progress so far and that is it.
I have also heard that these are hard to come by because the lengthened frame is used as the basis for a lot of these custom single actions in gigantic calibers.

 

[Old Fuff]

I see that even RCBS recommends that you seat this one and crimp it as two steps.

I always do this on any cartridge. Otherwise the bullet is still moving down as the crimp closes. Not a good thing.

 

[Jim March]

My understanding is that it was mainly the idiots loading 125gr jacketed slugs up past 2,000fps (eek!) that were eating the guns alive. Run 158gr and above and it's an AWESOME caliber.

For anyone wanting the same ballistics in a standard Blackhawk/Vaquero, send your 357Magnum cylinder to Gary Reeder to have it reamed out to 356GNR - basically a 41Mag shell necked down to 357.

You can also do this to a New Vaq in 357 but you won't have the same power on tap...shorter cylinder and the gun isn't as strong.

John Linebaugh used 357Maximum frames to build custom 5-shot 475 and 500 "Linebaugh Long" calibers, which were the absolute kings of handgun performance until the 500S&W shipped.

 

[Crosshair]

Reaming the chamber in a .357 Magnum NEF Handi-Rifle to .357 Maximum specs has become common and has made the .357 Maximum much more popular than in past years. I hope to get a Handi and perform this mod to it. I wish someone would chamber a Marlin lever action in the .357 Max. The .357 Maximum is like the 22 Jet, great idea that had a few issues and never quite took off.

 

[rlt7272]

At one time I had a Contender barrel in .357 max. It was a blast to shoot, big fireball, got everyones attention at the range. When I sold the barrel I was not reloading or I would have probably kept it. I am always on the lookout for a Ruger in .357 max while at the local gunshows but no luck sofar.

I will stumble onto one like you did someday and I will do the same, take it home.

As far at the Handi recambering, I would love to do that also, but I have not seen a .357 mag handi in a while.

Congats on your find, you will enjoy it.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Thanks for the info.

Well dies, brass and a redding profile crimper are on order. I also picked up some 180 grn and 158 grn jacketed bullets. I mostly shoot lead, but probably not in this gun.

Reading the posts over at reloading.com and accuratearms etc. It seems like the top strap issue is exactly like above described, light bullets, hot loads. Also several comments followed the same thread of avoid ball powders as they tend to enhance the problem.

I bought it mainly just to play with and push the power up a bit more. I have no intension of the light and fast route.

When I get some loads built I will have to post up a range report and get the chrono out and see what this beast will do. Tomorrow I hope to get it out and at least see what some 357 mag rounds feel like out of it.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Congrats on your new toy. I regret passing up the opportunity to buy a United Sporting Armory .357 max a couple years back.

Well dies, brass and a redding profile crimper are on order. I also picked up some 180 grn and 158 grn jacketed bullets. I mostly shoot lead, but probably not in this gun.

Good plan. Most cast bullets won't even take .357 mag velocities, so pushing another 400-500 FPS would probably just create solder.

 

[ChristopherG]

Now your issue, should you plan to actually shoot anything with it, will become bullet construction. They just don't make a whole lotta .357 bullets to go as fast as a .357 max will push them. I speak from indirect experience, as owner of/loader for a Marlin in .357.

If you want to go fast with a 158, the best candidates to perform well at higher velocities are the Hornady XTP FP (NOT HP) and the Speer Gold Dot. Of these, the XTP FP is a bit more accurate for me in various guns--in fact the MOST accurate .357 bullet I've used, period.

Go a little heavier, and you can get the 170 Gold Dot Soft Point, which is still plenty accurate, and which you KNOW will not blow apart at higher velocities (I push this one to 1800 fps from the Marlin--don't know that you could quite do that from the Ruger, but probly not far from it).

Then, if you wanna get into heavyweights, you have the 180 XTP or the Remington 180 SJHP (a value leader from Midwayusa) and a variety of GAS CHECKED 180's (& higher) from Cast performance, Leadheads, etc. Lead bullets will do just fine this fast if you cover the back end with a little copper petticoat.

I don't know why anyone would have loaded these things with 125 gr. bullets, unless they were shooting jackrabbits at 200 yards; no bullet that light is either going to shoot as accurately over range or hold up as well on impact. I spose they liked the fireworks.

So what kind of thing are you planning on shooting, or at least planning on IMAGINING shooting, and what kind of bullet are you planning to load? Or are you one of the arcane brotherhood of casters, now sure to recite mold numbers for us?

 

[Dr.Rob]

Flame cutting starts and then stops. Sort of.

The velocity of the gas and powder diminishes with distance from the flash gap and after a certain distance it lacks the ooph to keep causing erosion.

Or that's the theory. Don't stand next to anyone shooting a max revolver.

And one reason you can get a use Blackhawk or Dan Wesson on the cheap.

As far as benchrest shooting it's fun as sin to smack 180 grain bullets downrange before you even feel the recoil. The larger super Blackhawk frame helps to tame it a bit.

I much prefer the 180gr bullets to the 158gr.

As for hunting (carrying it around in a cross-chest rig) the Blackhawk is pretty darn awkward to employ in a hurry... like in heavy woods but on more open or broken ground (like varminting) it's no too bad.

 

[roscoe]

What kind of velocity does the .357 max give to 158 and 180 grain loads? I am trying to compare it to, say, Buffalo Bore 158 grains at 1450 fps from a 5" barrel.

 

[ChristopherG]

For a 10.5" Blackhawk, Hornady shows the following max loads (all jacketed):

110 gr, 2000 fps
125 gr, 1850
158 gr, 1600
180 gr, 1450

Interestingly, these are within a hundred fps (some higher, some lower) of the max loads they show for .357 mag in a carbine (which, in my guns, are not the real max loads).

 

[roscoe]

Interesting - those numbers you listed for the 125 grain load are within 150 fps or less (or much less for the 180 grain load) of Buffalo Bore's numbers from a 5" or 6" barrel:

5" barrel - a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
6" barrel - Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1707 fps

I am guessing that the .357 maximum can be made to do much more.

 

[Jim March]

Do not EVER send the gun to Ruger. All 357Max SBHs are on recall because the morons with 125gr hotloads ate away at their topstraps. Ruger will offer you either "fair value" whatever that is or maybe a different gun, but you'd have to sue to get your gun back.

 

[El Hombre]

Do not EVER send the gun to Ruger. All 357Max SBHs are on recall because the morons with 125gr hotloads ate away at their topstraps. Ruger will offer you either "fair value" whatever that is or maybe a different gun, but you'd have to sue to get your gun back.


I have heard this also. Ruger will not return a SRM Blackhawk.

All of my experience with the 357 MAX has been with the Dan Wesson revolvers and 158 & 180 gr bullets. It's a great round. The Ruger cylinders are a little shorter than the DW, so the Ruger can't chamber true "357 SuperMag" length rounds. But in reality the difference in performance is minimal.
I managed to buy a Ruger with the 10 1/2 barrel a couple years ago NIB. I still haven't shot it yet. Threads like this get me interested again though...........

 

[BADSBSNF81]

Post over at rugerforum.com. Do you have a letter on it from Ruger? Did it come with a box, papers, etc? All adds to the value.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I have not hit rugerforum, but I will tonight. No box or paperwork, but the gun is in perfect condition, or was....


I have now put 205 rounds of my hottest 357 mag reloads with 2400 down it. Recoil is very mild and accuracy is good. I have to say that the grooved trigger will take some getting used to and the barrel is quite hot when trying to eject the brass. Is there some trick to how you should do that to avoid getting your finger tips burned on the barrel?

I see that shooting a Single Action gun like the 357Max requires dead consistent holding of the grips. Any variation sends the bullet to a different spot. I don't know why this would be different then my other guns, but it definitely is.

I also noted that rolling my pinkie under the grip to index my hand on the frame is "not" a good idea with hotter loads. The blackhawk seems to roll up in the hand during firing so your pinkie gets a good whack each shot.

Can anyone offer any tips on how to shoot these guns more accurately? I seem to have a lateral dispersion problem which I attribute to the grip slipping in my hand or I am not holding it at the same spot each time. I feel as if I am holding it to high on the grip as I have to pull the trigger sort of up and back to get a straight pull on it. I have my hand with my middle finger resting up on under the frame and I think that is probably a bit too high.

I will say this, single action guns are a good way of slowing down the shooting pace. By the time you load the gun shoot it, empty out the shells and then repeat, I could shoot about 4 times as many out of a big N frame.

 

[Jim March]

You're absolutely right in that the "pinkie under" hold isn't for serious power levels.

If it were my gun, I'd be very tempted to "Bisley-ize" it. The Ruger "Bisley" grip just makes more sense for big power. Might even go all-out and swap hammer and trigger to Ruger's Bisley style too.

(Sidenote: what Ruger calls "Bisley" has more in common with a custom gun owned and partially designed by Elmer Keith called the "#5" - and then Ruger enlarged it and altered it. The original #5 used a mixture of grip parts from the Colt SAA and Colt Bisley.)

 

[Old Fuff]

I agree with Jim. The original "plow handle" grip was designed to be used with relatively light black powder loads - going back to the .36 caliber 1851 Navy model. The idea was that after firing the revolver would rotate in the hand and better position the thumb to recock it for the next shot. Lateral stringing is common when using hot loads in combination with a long barrel.

The guns natural rolling can be countered with what Ruger calls their Bisley grip, which has a straighter backstrap.

Best of all you can modify the gun without making any non-reversible modifications, and return it to the original configuration any time you want to.

 

[BluesBear]

Rotation of the muzzle to an upward position was a desirable trait for cap and ball revolvers.
Pointing the muzzle upwards during cocking ensured that pieces of the previously fired percussion cap fell away from and not into the mechanism.

S&W abandoned the rounded plow handle early on as did Colt upon the development of the double action revolver.

 

[Crosshair]

Just curious, would it be possible to put something on the topstrap over the barrel/cylender gap to protect the topstrap? Mabee a thin piece of steel crimped onto the topstrap. Then you could replace it as needed. It would look kinda goofy. But could it save the topstrap?

 

[Jim March]

Like a little flat piece of, say, tungsten carbide?

(scratches head)

There IS room in there, for a piece a bit thicker than, say, two business cards stacked. At least there is on my New Vaquero in 357Mag. And it would slide up above the back end of the barrel and over the cylinder, covering the "gap" and acting as a heat-shield.

Problem is, how do you attach it? Ain't no WAY you want to drill holes for small screws. You also don't want to weld or even braze it as the heat-treat on that topstrap is beyond just "critical importance".

JB-Weld or other high-tech epoxy maybe BUT it better not come loose, if it does it could tie the gun up.

Maybe...well I was going to say "wrap the shield up and over the topstrap, meeting at the top and gluing it there" but no, any metal soft enough to bend around the edges of the topstrap won't be tough enough to act as a heat shield. Carbide is brittle as hell. So is anything seriously heat-resistant...like, say, a Space Shuttle ceramic tile.

It could also reduce tolerances by quite a bit, making the gun more sensitive to crud buildup. What I mean is, you'd have a new area where two pieces of metal are passing real close AND in an area where soot is deposited. Of course, the barrel/cylinder gap is right there and fits the same description but it gets "blown out" on each shot which is why we can (usually) run gaps down around .002" in most calibers.

Hmmm.

Naaaa. You know what? Just don't shoot 125s. Even if you load them mild, with that big case capacity you'll have to load a healthy powder charge even to get 'em up past 1,200fps or so and it's that big burning ball of powder that eats the topstrap alive.

--------------

Something just occured to me: my motorcycle exhaust pipe is coated by a company called Jet Hot, it's a silver ceramic coat all over the pipe and raises it's ability to cope with heat. Stuff is rated 1,300degF and there's another formula rated 2000F.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........

We'd have to figure out how to keep it out of the gun's "innards" somehow but...you know, it *might* allow the gun to resist flame-cutting. The comment about space shuttle ceramic tiles made this "click"...

http://www.jet-hot.com

 

[BluesBear]

Why not just machine a small dovetail channel from side to side wherein you could pressfit your heat shield.

If it needed replacing simply drive it out from right to left and replace with another.