.357 question

[JohnhenrySTL]

I am attempting to load up my first .357s. I am using range brass that I found and Lee dies that say .38 special on them. As I have made thousands of other handgun rounds and .38 specials I am wondering why I am not getting hardly any pull with my 125 grain Hornady jacketed hollow points.

I am resizing and de-priming. Then measuring to make sure my brass is shorter than the maximum length. The same way I have loaded thousands of .38 specials, I then flared. I skipped over the priming and charging stages and went directly to seating and crimping. Before inserting the dummy round into the seating die, I screwed the die down until I could feel the case, then went a third of a turn deeper to crimp my bullets on place. I had virtually zero "pull."

I noticed the Hornady bullets appeared only .355 caliber. I tried using a case that had skipped flaring and still couldn't get pull. I'm thinking either my Lee die is only for my beloved .38 specials. Or perhaps my Hornady bullets are too slim. Forgive my windy question, I just want to succeed in loading some mid range .357s.

Thank you all.

 

[GP100man]

Is the sizer carbide ?? & do you full length size the case??

You may wanna measure the bullets with a micrometer, if they`re 355 you have 9mm bullets .

38/357 should be in the 357 358 range for any jacketed bullet manufacturer.

& while ya got the measuring tool out disassemble your flaring die & measure the flaring plug.

GP

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

Yes, it is a carbide Lee full sizer die. And I did measure the bullets with my Franklin micrometer, to the best of my ability. They appear as .355 inches. The case they came in has .38special/.357 printed on them.

 

[Reloadron]

A .355 bullet is a 9mm or .380 bullet diameter. Shouldn't you be using .357 bullets for 38 Special or 357 Magnum loads? I am missing something here. Also, unless the dies are labeled 38 Spl and 357 they are 38 Special dies. That is my thinking anyway. What is the Hornady part number for the bullets you are using?

<EDIT> Thinking if they are 38 Special dies they should do 357 Magnum. Still not sure about your measured .355 bullet diameters though. </EDIT>

Ron

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

Ron,
They say Hornady XTP 38 CAL. #35710.

The die says .38 special. The man from the reloading shop told me it could be used for .38specials and .357 magnum. Perhaps he was wrong. But the bullets say .357 /.38 on the box.

 

[Reloadron]

You're fine as to the Hornady #35710 (a 125 gr XTP) which has a diameter of 0.357" so don't worry about that. My 38/357 dies happen to be RCBS and dies like that simply include a spacer (large washer). It sounds like the dies you are using aren't giving you a nice roll crimp. If the seater die is only a 38 Spl die I am not sure how that will play out using Lee dies with the longer 357 Magnum cases. When doing the longer 357 cases I just use the washer (spacer). We need someone with the Lee dies to comment.

Ron

 

[rcmodel]

It doesn't matter.

.38 Spl dies will reload .357 perfectly, if they are adjusted properly for them.

If your .357" bullets measure .355"?

You either have a really bad measuring device?
Or, your bullets somehow got made .002" too small by Hornady?

Do you have any other bullets of known size you could measure to test the accuracy of your measuring device for accuracy with?

While you are at it, measure your Lee expander.
If it's any larger then a tight slip fit in a sized case?
It is over-size and expanding the cases too much.

All you want the expander to do is act as a guide to keep the belling portion of it to keep it centered while belling.

rc

 

[Jim Watson]

If the bullets are really .355", they are too small.
If your measurement is in error, you have some other problem.
If you have little bullet pull with the case only flared and not expanded, your sizing die is not small enough. You cannot crimp a loose bullet tight.

 

[maxxhavoc]

The Lee .38 die set will load .357. The Lee .357 die set will not load .38 (but it will load the .357 Maximum.) At least this is the case with the carbide 3-die sets.

Make sure your sizing die is screwed down enough, other than that I am at a loss.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

...I am wondering why I am not getting hardly any pull with my 125 grain Hornady jacketed hollow points...
...I screwed the die down until I could feel the case, then went a third of a turn deeper to crimp my bullets on place. I had virtually zero "pull." ...

I guess it's just me because no one else asked but what do you mean you are not getting any bullet pull? I'm sorry but I just don't understand what you are saying/asking???

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

I measured my Suter's choice 158 semi wad cutter, they are .357. I also took the expander die apart and could barely fit it on the inside of a case using my hands. I then attempted to seat a 158 grain in a .357 case. I had pull, I shoved the case against my counter and floor without it budging. I believe I have bad bullets. I guess this is a simple 40 dollar mistake. I bought two boxes.

I originally wanted some type of jacketed expanding 158 grain bullets for hunting and such for my GP100. If anybody is confident my measurements are off, or wants to chance the hornadys, please offer me a trade in your favor.

And thanks again for every bodies patience. I feel my problem is solved.

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

ArchAngel,

By me not getting "Pull," I meant the bullet was not seated properly in the case. It would move around in the case after I had put it through the final seating stage. I usually test my reloads by pushing the finalized round against my counter or floor, if it's length doesn't change with Mico metering before and after I figure it has enough pull to cycle and be fired. I'm sure my verb choices lack, but this is the expression I was taught. I believe pull is neck tension.

 

[gamestalker]

FYI JohnhenerySTL, just for future reference, what you are referring to as "pull" is referred to as "neck tension" in the reloading world. My first thought was you were talking about pulling bullets.

That had me guessing there too Arch.

And yes, if those bullets are measuring .355" they are defective, all my 38/357 XTP's measure .357".

GS

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thanks form the clarification. When talking about revolvers ammo bullet pull usually means the bullet is "pulling"out of the case under recoil when the other rounds are shot in a revolver. I knew you weren't talking about that but I just couldn't get it... Sometimes I'm a little thick in the head lol.

 

[rcmodel]

I believe I have bad bullets. I guess this is a simple 40 dollar mistake. I bought two boxes.

I believe if you call Hornady tomorrow morning and whine like a whipped dog?

They will want those bullets back.

And send you replacement bullets & then some.

rc

 

[il.bill]

The Lee .38 special die set will definitely load .357 magnum cartridges. On the back side of the instruction sheet there is a somewhat hard to notice 'note' that the Powder Through Expanding Die and the Bullet Seat & Feed Die must both be backed out a specific additional amount each from the initial setting to accommodate the .125" longer case for the .357 magnum. The Carbide Sizing Die and the Carbide Factory Crimp Die (in a four die set) are adjusted using the same steps for both .38 spl. and .357 mag.

And ... as noted, your bullets at .355" are too small in diameter.

 

[Jim Watson]

FYI gamestalker, just for future reference, what you are referring to as "neck tension" is described as "bullet pull" in the munitions industry. Because it is measured by the amount of pull it takes to extract a bullet.

One community of handloaders I know refers to "neck tension" in thousandths of an inch, how much smaller the case neck I.D. is than the bullet.

When C.E. Harris did a project for NRA on .38 bullets in 9mm and vice versa, he had to have a special order sizing die made to get adequate bullet pull/neck tension on 9mm bullets in .38 Special cases. It gave them a slight bottleneck appearance. It had an RCBS stock number but it would hardly be worth the price for a couple of boxes of bullets.
Complain to Hornady.

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

Jim Watson, I am asking, even if I could properly seat bullets that were .355 caliber wouldn't they be dangerous to fire because of cutting?

I am honestly wondering. I'm sure if experts or actual manufactors molded a die for that intended function they based their decision on more inclusive decisions than my limited understanding.

Early on, well earlier on, I would put my dummy rounds in my bullet puller before they were charged and check my pull/neck tension based on how many times I had to wack to free up the bullet. I'm not sure if crimping is why, but I've noticed handgun rounds require more force to remove than .308s.

 

[Jim Watson]

I can't see how it would be dangerous, as long as the .355s were well seated and didn't kick out or push back. Just consider the convertible revolvers from Ruger, Manurhin, and Korth. They have correct 9mm chambers but are still stuck with that .38 barrel.

I guess if you shot them all the time, there might be more barrel wear from gas cutting. But you will get that from jacketed .357s.

 

[murf]

if you own a 9mm die set, just size and bell again with them after first sizing with the 38 spl sizing die.

murf

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

The bullets are fine. I called Hornady today and they patiently talked me through the process of seating my .357s.I have plenty of neck tension.

I was threading the die to the case then turning a third deeper for my crimp. I needed to turn the die to my case, set my bullet depth to the crimping groove and then go a third deeper.

It works. I have great neck tension. My length according to Lee is wrong, but my the bullet is set exactly in the groove. Thank you for every bodies help sincerly.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

My length according to Lee is wrong, but my the bullet is set exactly in the groove. Thank you for every bodies help sincerly.

I'm glad everything worked out well...

Just a note, your OAL isn't wrong. The OAL in the Speer book isn't what your OAL should be. They are only reporting the OAL of the components they used to develop the data. Unless you use the same brass, trimmed to the same length and use the same exact bullet the OAL they report is useless to you. You said the crimp is in the manufacturers provided groove so your OAL is correct for that bullet.

I have never checked the OAL of a round made with a bullet that has a crimp groove. It just doesn't matter as long as you crimp into the supplied groove. (unless the bullet is incorrect for the application or defective of course)

 

[GP100man]

I see now , he was over crimping & actually loosening the neck tension??

After rerereading the second paragraph I had an ah hah moment !

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

Yes, and I was concerned with the length too much. I ended up also realizing I was over flaring the brass. The manual recommended one turn off a fully raised ram, I found for .357, two turns off is more like it. I resized my my brass, I put in ccI. small pistol magnum primers and 16.5 grains of I.M.R. 4227. I am looking forward to a day of clay birding and testing my 8 .357s.