.357 SIG performance in an actual homicide

[cookekdjr]

I've been exposed to far fewer homicide cases since leaving Atlanta to become a federal prosecutor. Even as a homicide prosecutor in Atlanta, I rarely saw the performance of the .357 SIG round. Actually, I never did. Lots of .40's, .45's, .357's, 9mm's, etc. No .357 SIG.
Yesterday a local LEO who is also a sworn federal agent (long story) told me of a homicide case he worked involving a .357 SIG Springfield XD.
The perp shot two women with it. One he killed. The killing round went through her arm (flesh only) and both lungs, and lodge in her liver. The tissue damage was enormous. The other went through her torso. It appears neither slug expanded (both jhp's), but did seperate from their jacket.
The other lady was shot in the left thigh, and the round destroyed her femur. I mean shattered it to pieces.
In any event, the cop told me he was very impressed with the power of the round.
I wish I had more details to share (I used to get more info on these because i was working the case, this is all second hand from my bud). When I find out more details I will post them. Just wanted to let you folks know what I knew. BTW, the shattering of the femur is what seperates the typical 9mm loads from 40/45/357, in that they make an "ordinary" gunshot wound into a disabling one. No, this is not to start a caliber war; I carry a Glock 19 but I choose my load carefully. Just letting you know where the differences normally manifest themselves.
Gotta go to a meeting and then court for the rest of the day, but wanted to share this with y'all while I had a spare moment.
-David

 

[Moonclips]

...The tissue damage was enormous. The other went through her torso. It appears neither slug expanded...

Although, in court such testimony would be regarded a mere hearsay, nonetheless I'm impressed! Even though the round did not expand the round did so much damage because of its high velocity. Yummy!

 

[blackpanther]

I personaly know of one shooting with a .357 sig.Perk was a 300lb monster.Hit just below the knee.Did not expand but the leg bone exploded blowing pieces 20'.Talked to the EMS boys and the reason he probably lived was because of his size he had enough body fluid to live.If you can make some contacts in Texas you could get some info on the .357 sig.Our local county PD rejected the round because of over penatration.
Ed

 

[Moonclips]

I am not a ballistics expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I have a theory. Just like the massive damage inflicted by a rifle round like a .308hp is totally out of proportion to its weight of 165gr (for example) because of the effect of the very high velocity, I think there might be threshold of velocity in handgun rounds, which if exceeded produces tissue damage beyond what would be expected based on its weight and caliber, even if the round barely expands at all.

('scuse me, but I think I will load up on the .357Sig ammo from DT. Talk to ya'll later.)

 

[wally]

A .357 SIG 125gr round at ~1400 fps won't be any more or less effective than a 125 gr .357 Mag or .38 Super at ~1400 fps.

--wally.

 

[Reyn]

Cant speak for the two-legged but ive seen a pitbull shot with one and it didnt faze him. Killed him but he still attacked our deputy after being shot. Took 3 rounds. Of course that would probably have happened with any of the main LEO calibers.

 

[DHart]

Any idea on what data is available for 10mm? Of course most major factory 10mm ammo is barely any hotter than .40 cal. The exception, among the major ammo makers, is Winchester 175 gr. Silvertip in 10mm - my favorite 10mm load. The 175 gr. JHP clocks at around 1225 fps.

 

[RyanM]

The threshold for gross tissue damage due to the temporary cavity, assuming adequate penetration and no fragmentation, is around 800-1000 ft-lbs. That's the bare minimum. With some (but not too much) fragmentation, more like half that.

It's not magic. It's not velocity. It's temporary cavity (which correlates with energy) combined with moderate fragmentation (I'm betting the rounds did expand, but had a small diameter due to fragmentation).

My personal load is a 180 gr .40 cal JHP which expands to about .58" and loses about 40 gr of mass as fragments. Deep penetration, big temporary cavity, and a lot of jagged metal bits.

 

[cookekdjr]

Cookekdjr has already answered my question in his original post, and reinforced his previous observations over a twenty year period that bullets do not expand in humans.
Hi Johnny. To clarify, I only have 10 years experience. Actually, I have 20 years experience but I crammed it all into 10 years' time.
BTW, my ME friends who conduct autopsies related to gunshot wounds have confirmed the lack of jhp expansion by handgun bullets. There is a fair amount of jacket separation but very little (in degree) and very rare (in occurance) handgun bullet expansion. One ME who'd conducted thousands of autopsies told me she'd only seen one "classic mushroom" (her term).
Anyway, I'm headed to court. Will let y'all know when/if I hear anymore about the .357 SIG incident.
-David

 

[30 cal slob]

The perp shot two women with it. One he killed. The killing round went through her arm (flesh only) and both lungs, and lodge in her liver. The tissue damage was enormous. The other went through her torso. It appears neither slug expanded (both jhp's), but did seperate from their jacket.
The other lady was shot in the left thigh, and the round destroyed her femur. I mean shattered it to pieces.

i'm a big fan of the .357 sig caliber, notwithstanding the fact it is a relative newcomer to the autoloader scene and incident reports are rare.

it just would have been nice to hear this particular confirmation from the flip-side of this perp-victim(s) story.

 

[the naked prophet]

I had heard though - not that I have any experience at all - that most of those shootings were with wal-mart JHP or first-generation JHP like Hydrashocks that don't expand well through clothing. I read that only the modern, newest generation JHP like the Gold Dots will expand reliably through clothing. Since they've only been around for a few years, I assume they haven't made their way to the ME table very frequently.

But like I said, I'm not expert, and I've never shot anything but a deer with a pistol.

 

[jc2]

The Gold Dot has pretty much been the standard LE load for the 357 SIG for the last ten years (with the Winchester Ranger T running second). It's not like it's a new load (though Speer is continually tweaking the Gold Dot).