.357 SIG vs. 40 cal

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I do not count myself among the 357 SIG fans on this board. I am confident in the abilities of the 124 +P Gold Dots and the 127 +P+ Rangers out of a 9mm. But by almost all counts and almost all sources, when both cases are filled to what are accepted as safe pressures, the 357 SIG bullets are traveling faster than those of the 9mm. As long as we're talking quality or 'premium' expanding hollow points, I don't see how the 9mm will be quite as effective as the 357 SIG... I just don't see it. Not talking 'street performance' or 'one shot stop percentages' but actual expansion and actual foot lbs of energy transferred... The 357 SIG must have more energy much as the 10mm (when loaded properly) must have more energy than the 40S&W.

Now, for my money, I'd rather have a 9mm and be able to practice with uber cheap 9mm ammo and carry a smaller 9mm that any 357 SIG, but I don't doubt the effectiveness of the 357 SIG nor do I doubt the superiority of the 357 SIG over the 9mm when wanting maximum fb/lbs and/or maximum penetration with an expanding hollow point bullet.
 
Actually, it has been pretty well established. The best 9x19 and 357 SIG ammunition are delivering virtually identical penetration and expansion (approximately 16 inches penetration and expansion in the low to mid .60s). The top 9x19 rounds are delivering similar performance to top 357 SIG rounds in actual LE usage. Testing indicates very similar intermediate barrier performance with the best 9x19 and 357 SIG ammunition.

What are the sources for this determination? I am indeed surprised if researchers are consistently finding identical wound cavities (simulated and actual) with the two cartridges.

Unfortunately, all the negatives (increase muzzle flip, increased muzzle blast, lower capacity, greater wear and tear on the weapon and the shooter, and siginficantly higher cost) of that extra MV and ME remain.

Differences in muzzle flip/blast are minimal between .357 SIG and 9mm +P/+P+, and magazine capacity differences are also not considerable (especially for post-ban magazines). I am also not convinced that a substantial difference in wear/tear exists. If anything, wear/tear might be worse with a 9mm weapon using +P/+P+ ammunition (particularly with weapons designed for use with standard-pressure ammunition). Finally, ammunition cost differences might be meaningful for some shooters; however, they are usually exaggerated by 9mm proponents (by comparing prices for standard-pressure 9mm ball with .357 SIG ball).
 
jc2, from what your saying the 357SIG and 9mm use different bullets? I guess I need to know if the 357SIG is a 9mm bullet, I got that impression. I don't reload but I thought that they were the same and could be loaded with that regard.

If this is true and we took the 9mm round used in this test and made it even faster to match the 357sig, it would not increase its effectiveness, correct? We have basically reached a maximum effective velocity for our current 9mm bullets?

If this is false, then the 357sig bullet needs more research. It is failing because the bullet design itself is underperforming. With more advances we should eventually expect even more performance fromt he 357sig?

_________________________________________________________

My original question was regarding the same bullet out of the two different cases traveling at different velocities and yet producing the same terminal ballisitics. I'm not really concerned with which round is a better performer, ballistically they are good enough that it really comes down to shot placement IMO. What I want to know is what is happening from a scientific POV to this energy if in fact the terminal ballistics are the same.

Thanks
 
Beav -
jc2, from what your saying the 357SIG and 9mm use different bullets? I guess I need to know if the 357SIG is a 9mm bullet, I got that impression. I don't reload but I thought that they were the same and could be loaded with that regard.
Yes, the major manufacturers Speer, Winchester, etc. use different bullets for the 9x19 and 357 SIG. Yes, the 357 SIG is "9mm bullet" in the sense that it has a diameter of 9 millimeters (just like the 9x19), but that is where the resemblance ends.
If this is true and we took the 9mm round used in this test and made it even faster to match the 357sig, it would not increase its effectiveness, correct?
No, if you took the 9x19 bullet and made "it even faster to match the 357sig [sic]," it would be less effective because it is designed to work within a specific velocity "window." If it is driven too fast, effectiveness would deteriorate as overexpansion, fragmentation and underpenetration become distinct possibilies.
If this is false, then the 357sig bullet needs more research. It is failing because the bullet design itself is underperforming. With more advances we should eventually expect even more performance fromt he 357sig?
That is a very big (and very wrong) assumption. Most 357 SIG bullets are well-designed and perform very well. There are limits to what can be done with .36 calibre 124/125/127-grain bullets. It appears the 9x19 and 357 SIG has just about reached the optimum level of performance with .36 calibre bullets that will work in them. Frankly, I just do not "expect even more performance fromt [sic] he[sic] 357sig[sic]" because there's just not a whole lot of room for improvement for .36 calibre bullets of a length/weight that will be reliable in the 357 SIG.
 
Anybody have current info on what agencies are now using the 357SIG? Has any agency switched back to the 9 or to another caliber after adopting the 357SIG? Have any agencies recently switched over to the 357SIG?
 
prefer 357sig for the range and home defense. would also prefer 357sig for carry, i know a couple of officers that carry the 357sig +p
 
My experiences with these calibers

I had a Glock .33 in .357 SIG but I didn't like it and ended up giving it to my dad. It was a snappy, yappy, little beast that hurt my ears and over penetrated.

I could send 5 slugs through two wet Sears catalogs and an aluminum frying pan really fast but just think of all that lost energy. Well the first X-mas after I gave it to dad I gave him a .40 barrel for it and this past X-mas he got a lasermax sight for it LOL.

Its an okay pistol but I'm going to stick with my S&W 25-5 revolver in .45 colt for now anyway.

Oh, I think I should mention this in case it hasn't been mentioned above. Some of you guys advised to get the .40 THEN convert it to .357 SIG. I just don't think that would be safe. I think you should get the .357 THEN convert it to a .40 if that's what you want to do. Just MHO.

OOH-RAH!

Jas
 
As my Sig line will tell you...

...I own all kinds of guns in different calibers, and at the moment I'm going through a revolver infatuation... so I'm not just blindly biased towards .357 Sig (anymore :neener: ). I own both barrels for my Sig Pro, so I actually have experience firing both rounds from the exact same gun. These are just my honest thoughts on the subject. I didn't read the entire thread before posting, so I doubt I'll say anything that hasn't already been said 20 times... but, here goes.

My .40 barrel is lonely... I never take it out anymore. There's nothing the .40 can do that the .357 Sig can't do better and faster, IMO. It is bigger, but not by enough to make me feel that it's a better round. If I want bigger I get the .45's out.

Shooting .40 to me just feels like '9mm snap' mixed with '.45 torque.' It has snap, but it also pushes my hands upwards a bit, which makes for longer time between follow-up shots. .357Sig is more snappy with a lot less torque. The .357Sig snaps straight back very quickly, bringing me back on target faster. It comes back at you with a little authority, but it's manageable.

.357Sig is loud as hell... it has a lot of flash...
That's just a side benefit though :D

.357Sig was designed to replicate the performance of the .357 Magnum 125gr. load - probably the most successful one-shot-stop pistol round of all time. The .40 is a good size, and moves fast enough that it will drop most bad guys, but it's hardly replicating .357 Magnum ballistics.

.357Sig penetrates barriers (like car doors, automobile glass, etc.) better than .40S&W. This is why LEO's and departments around the country are starting to adopt the round as well.

I am more accurate with .357Sig.

.357 Sig costs me $13-$15 for a 50-box. A tad more expensive than .40, but once again not enough worth mentioning IMO, considering .40 is running $11-$12 per 50-rnd box. It's not hard to find either, if you have a Wal-Mart or sports store within driving distance. It's been a while since I've been somewhere that didn't carry .357Sig.

I know people who have bought .40 caliber guns, and didn't like them.
I've never met, or heard of anyone who owns a .357Sig and doesn't love it. Most of us who own them, love them and have nothing but praise for the round.

9mm = 9x19. IIRC, .357Sig uses a 9x21mm bullet... Don't hang anyone on that info, I could be dead wrong.

Now for overpenetration: I've never worried about overpenetration in any application. It's not a .50BMG - you're not going to kill someone a mile away if the bullet goes through the bad guy, which it probably won't. In the event that it does, I doubt you'll be mugged, robbed, or assaulted in such a crowded public place that bystanders are in danger of catching your rounds after they pass thru the BG. People who want to victimize you usually don't like big crowds.

If you're using JHP's, as most of us do, then don't even worry about it. I had an ND using some really hot .38Spl+P, and because of the room I was in and where I was, I basically ended up firing into my wall through a mirror at point blank range. The bullet hit a 2x4, knocked a chunk out of it the size of a quarter and lodged in the plywood about 5" back... This is from a gun w/a 4" barrel, once again at point blank range - the wall couldn't have been 2 ft. from the muzzle. It did NOT go through the wall... the bullet expanded, and it was so clogged with drywall that I doubt it could have gone through the other side if it still had enough velocity to keep going.

If the same bullet had traveled through a human body and clothing first, I doubt it would have done anything more than break the mirror and land on the floor.

Overpenetration makes 2 bleeding holes, instead of one... which incapacitates the bad guy faster. That's a good thing.

Underpenetration can get you killed. Obviously not such a good thing.

I'm sure the condition of your drywall would be the last thing on your mind after an SD shooting.
 
Hello all. First off, glad to be a new member. Secondly I am looking into trading my g38(.45 g.a.p.) in on a g32, or g19. I really like how the g38 shoots, and it's actually a pretty accurate gun. The things just so darn slide heavy, it's really a pain to carry. When I was in the academy, my commander, who works for the Union Co. Sheriff, near Columbus OH was issued a g32. He loved it. He brought it to the range one day and did the milk jug test along with the g19 we were using. I was sold immediatly on the .357sig. The g19 just kind of put a hole in the jug. Nothing special. The g32 on the other hand, blew the jug into small unidentifiable parts. I only bring this up because if both the 9x19, and .357sig are so similar, or camparable, and velocity doesn't matter, then why did one milk jug live to see another day, and one have to be identified by dental records. I'm not trying to be a smart a*!, and i'm not pretending to be a gun expert, I'm just trying to understand.
 
Well, someone has been breathing life into this older thread ...

I went back and looked at my brief comments made back in Dec 2003 ... and I find that my thoughts haven't changed.

Enjoy whatever you like, or are issued.

It's just a defensive handgun.

I still place more of a premium on shooter ability and skill than I do caliber ...
 
The .40S&W to me is the perfect SD caliber.
Very little recoil, high capacity and ultra reliable function with all manner of ball and HP rounds, from pistols such as the G23.
Ammo can be found at any Gunstore. Could care less, if Chinamart carries anything.
Ammo for the .40 compared to 9mm is only around 1.25 more per box. That means I shoot and practice alot. If a dollar twenty five ever break's me, I'll know I have a crappy job/career.

The .357Sig.
Recoil from the G31, G32 and G23 with conversion barrel is a non issue. Recoil is simply not there.
I have no issues with the .357Sig. I think it is a great round.

At 7-25 yards, I am simply more accurate with .40S&W.
 
This item is a bit dated I believe. I remember reading a few years ago. Well, maybe more than a few years ago. Evan Marshall had been compling the one shot stops with Ed Sanow, and they put the list together. If my old thinking cap serves me right, Evan noted he had started carrying the .357 Sig as his carry gun. I sure do wish I knew what he carries today? I like the .357 Sig. The bottleneck case feeds better than any straight walled case. IMHO of course!!! The round that has gotten overlooked in the last number of years is the 400 Cor-Bon. Dog Gone shame it was not named the 400 Magnum Colt and put in a 5" Colt 1911. But then, I am not in charge of marketing. I like this round better than any .40 S&W round. It would have sold like ice cold drinks at the gates of Hades.
Billy Wyrick
University of R. E. & D.
Director, of Dept. of B.S.
 
I only saw it once - in response #86 by fastbolt - but the most important thing in this whole debate is not the ammo. It's shot placement.

I think anyone who really knows the facts about using a pistol in self defense wil ltell you that you can stop somone with a single, well-placed .38 special round.

I would also say that considering that the heat of a fight will almost certainly make you miss if you actually shoot then the most apporpriate thing to be thinking about is not how fast the round is going but rather, how slow it can go and still do the job.

Take the .40 for more ammo capacity. Take a .45 for a big slow bullet that will put almost anyone down instantly and without fanfare.

s
 
I shoot both .40 and 357 SIG out of my Glock 23, and they're both good choices. If I had to choose, I'd stick with the .40.

The 357 SIG is in fact touted as replicating .357 Mag ballistics and it does a good job, but I've read reports that officers in the field have had better results with the .40 S&W than with the .357 Mag.

Now since the .40 S&W can outperform the 357 SIG with nearly identical bullet weights, (same case, larger bullet...much like 300 Win Mag vs. 7mm Rem Mag) then why is the 357 SIG equal to .357 Magnum ballistics, but a .40 S&W is nowhere near the .357 Mag, as Cousin Mike stated?

And come on' ya'll, it's 357 SIG not ".357"
 
Now since the .40 S&W can outperform the 357 SIG with nearly identical bullet weights, (same case, larger bullet...much like 300 Win Mag vs. 7mm Rem Mag) then why is the 357 SIG equal to .357 Magnum ballistics, but a .40 S&W is nowhere near the .357 Mag, as Cousin Mike stated?

This is simply what everything I've read indicates - same as any other info given on the board. I also was unaware that the .40 outperformed the .357Sig... in anything. I didn't say that .357Sig was equal to .357 Magnum.. What I said was

.357Sig was designed to replicate the performance of the .357 Magnum 125gr. load - probably the most successful one-shot-stop pistol round of all time. The .40 is a good size, and moves fast enough that it will drop most bad guys, but it's hardly replicating .357 Magnum ballistics.

.357Sig moves faster than .40S&W, and uses the same bullet weights as the .357 magnum. The .40 has completely different #'s when it comes to bullet weight, speed, ft.lbs. of energy, etc. The .357Sig replicating the ballistics of the .357 Magnum has nothing to do with how effective or ineffective a round the .40S&W is.
 
Corbon 135 grain .40 = 1325 fps/526 ft lbs muzzel energy. Thats right there with the 357 magnum, but with larger bullet diameter.:D
 
Remember, all pistols stink ballistically when compared to a full powered rifle!

You'll *probably* end up shooting the goblin multiple times to stop the attack. This is why we train with double taps, emergency drills, and Wilsons. In the end, it doesn't matter what you're using so long as you can control the weapon during rapid fire.
 
Pretty Similiar - Just Style

.357 sig
115gr
1550fps / 614 ft. lbs.
125gr
1450fps / 584 ft. lbs.
147gr
1250fps / 510 ft. lbs.

.40 caliber
135gr JHP
1375fps / 567 ft/lbs
155gr JHP
1275fps / 560 ft/lbs
180gr
1100fps / 484 ft/lbs

The sig may carry 50-100 more fps depending on the weight, but smaller diameter. You make the pick.
 
I own 4-.40S&W pistols and 1 chambered in .357Sig.

I like shooting my Glock 32 better than any of my .40 cals.

The Sig round has a more of a "straight back" recoil for me instead of a "flip up" feel that the .40 has.

I also shoot a little more accurately with the .357 round than the .40 but it's not really even noticeable.

Fun factor........ no comparison. The .357 Sig puts a smile on my face everytime I shoot it. :D
 
The FBI uses .40

The Secret Service uses .357 sig

In my opinion they are both great rounds, just pick one and practice with it.
 
I got a SIG 226 .357/.40. First off, a 5% of an inch more diameter isnt enough to be that decisive of its wounding potential, especially on the receiving end. The .357 is a force to be reckoned with. The .357SIG has incredible long range accuracy. The trajectory is straight as a laser beam. A shot to wet newspaper with GA. ARMS 125GR 1400FPS(prob near 1450 out of my 41/2" barrel) causes a 3" wide entrance
crater with nominal penetration. The COR-BON 125gr HP are even more brutal as they replicate a 357 mag HP performance completely. Its not just a
9mm+P++, it actually pushes the round to its structural limits, sometimes almost turning HPs inside out or fragmenting 'em Completely, like a .357mag. Engineers had to redesign bullets to control expansion.
 
Face it, 9mm is DEAD! Police use is waining greatly, and the military KNOWS its puny. Only in the ghetto does it still reside with its once reputation. The .357SIG IS a +P+9mm, but can shoot them all day long. Its the MOST accurate loading ever, see for yourself. As far as wear, get a SIG Sauer, like my p226. Its built to take that kind of abuse, and does. .357 SIG rules, or at least thats what I think, and this Blackwater junkie told me. At the time this ancient thread was started, .357SIG could of been expensive to shoot, with limited ammo choices. But FF to now, late summer of '07, Its just as cheap as any other. The .357SIG wounds like a .45 in ballistic gel, with a premium hp.
 
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