.357 vs .44 - Bear Hunting vs Woods Survival

[NewGuy77]

In reading over many forum discussions, which have been very informative, I am left wondering if the kind folks of thr might be able to answer a question that has been tough for me to wrap my brain around. You should know that I own a 12 guage (remington 870) and pistol (glock 19) and would like to purchase a revolver.

I am torn between a 44 and a 357. I would like something mostly for the range, but would also suffice in the woods and as home defense (not ccw). Most discussions that I seen indicate that when hiking in the woods a 357 should suffice in most situations (bear or two legged creatures); however, when reading about handgun hunting for bear a 44 is recommended.

So how is it that people seem to recomend a 357 for defense of bear and 44 for hunting one - please know that I am in Colorado so these are black bear.
To add to the complication, this would be the gun that ends up in the survival kit meaning that I would like this for when it hits the fan.

Also, people recommend a 357 for hunting deer - is there something bad about having too much gun (44), except for having to carry it.

I would mostly be looking at a smith and wesson 4 in 357 or 6 in 44 (maybe a 5 in "classic")

Thanks to all for your input.

 

[B.D. Turner]

I would first decide what I wanted a hunting handgun or a self protection handgun. The .357 is a great woods gun and protection weapon. Have you checked out the Glock 20 10mm? This may be just what you are looking for.

 

[GJgo]

Well, if you do plan on hunting (big game) with it in Colorado, the 357 is not "legal". That is definitely something to consider. The rule states that a hunting handgun must have a minimum 4" barrel and maintain 550 ftlbs of energy at 50 yds, as rated by the manufacturer. Effectively, this makes a .41 mag the minimum legal revolver.

If it is just for SHTF and woods carry, either would do but the .44 may give more piece of mind.

If you plan on CCWing it as well and not actually hunting, I'd go with a 4-5" 357..

 

[22-rimfire]

From reading your post, it would seem that you lean toward the 44 magnum. Nothing wrong with the 44 mag for the purposes you want. It is a bit too much gun for self defense, but you can buy lower powered loadings for target shooting and perhaps home defense. You can also shoot the 44 special.

For me, I'd just split the difference and get a 41 magnum revolver especially since I'm a 41 mag fan.

I mostly use a Ruger SRH in 480 for hunting deer and I would use the same for black bear. It is part of the reason I chose the caliber. However, I doubt you will be shooting many rounds at the range in one outing. It is a handful. Ruger is re-introducing their Alaskan model which is geared toward self defense in the woods. The 454 and 44 versions are as well. Smith has a short barreled 500 mag for the same purpose. It just depends on how specialized a gun you want to carry that might not be as comfortable to shoot at the range, for hunting, or home defense. I'm not suggesting any of these for home defense and that might just be a good example of too much gun.

You can never really have too much gun for self defense in the woods and that would certainly apply to deer or black bear hunting. In hunting, you are trying to be humane and put the animal down fairly quickly. Chooseing a handgun in general is a compromise. They are just more portable for carry in the woods.

The 357 mag is the best caliber for all around use in the field. Most bear encounters do not include fighting for your life and therefore the 357 is just fine. It is a tad small as far as I'm concerned for deer hunting but many use it for hunting.

What is too much gun? Shooting a rabbit with a 44 magnum is probably an example of too much gun when a 22LR would do just fine.

 

[shooter429]

Well, it all depends on how well you handle recoil

A 4" .357 has accompanied me on my rural excursions, where I am sure there are no grizzlies. If you are recoil sensitive, get a GP100 or 686 with a 3-4" tube and you will have one of the best, most versatile guns in the world. If you can accuratly shoot a bigger Magnum, the .44 is always my choice in griz country. You could split the diff and go .41, but the .44 in the new, heavy Plus P plus loadings from Garrett or Buffalo bore are better penetrators. . I also think you should look at the new Smith and Wesson 610, as it can almost equal .41 ballistics and can also shoot lighter .40/reduced velocity.

If it were me, I would go with either a Ruger Redhawk in 4" or a S&W Mountain Gun.

Shooter429


Shooter429

 

[Chuck Perry]

For woods defense, the 357 may be adequate. The 44 is adequate. For your intended purposes, the 357 is probably best. It will make a fine range gun and will serve well for home defense. It can be had in smaller frame sizes than the 44, so it will be slightly easier to pack around in the woods. I think the 44 is said to be a better bear hunting gun because it will do at 100 yards what the 357 can only do at 25 yards. So, the 357 makes a fine defense gun, but it is not the first choice for hunting, unless the hunter is disciplined enough to only attempt shots well within ranges the cartridge is capable of making a clean kill.

 

[NewGuy77]

All of this information is very helpful, I think that I really need to get out to the range with a buddy or two and shoot both to see where I stand.

Thank you.

 

[glockman19]

A 4" .357 has accompanied me on my rural excursions, where I am sure there are no grizzlies. If you are recoil sensitive, get a GP100 or 686 with a 3-4" tube and you will have one of the best, most versatile guns in the world. If you can accuratly shoot a bigger Magnum, the .44 is always my choice in griz country.

I couldn't have said it better


I have a S&W 686 4" & 629 5" both are full lugged perfectly balanced guns IMHO.

 

[joneb]

For bear defense I would consider the new Ruger Alaskan in 480 Ruger five shot or the Alaskan.44 mag six shooter, for combo hunting/defense the Ruger 4" Redhawk .44 mag or Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 mag 4.625" barrel and a Bisley grip frame conversion.

 

[T.R.]

This photo shows that my 357 MAG is lethal at close range for large animals exceeding 500 lbs or more. I've wandered the wilderness areas of many western states. Typically wilderness black bears are not aggressive or assertive; they usually run for cover if encountered. That being said, I always bring six friends with me in the form of 357 MAG revolver.

44 MAG in revolver form is too much for me to fire accurately with any consistancy. The recoil factor can not be ignored.

Years ago, I carried a lightweight single shot 16 gauge on my long hikes. I carried it with chamber empty but a shell carrier attached to the stock held 5 rounds. The gun slung easily on my pack frame and could be handled in seconds. I never once fired at a bear during those numerous hikes.

Depending or where you hike, snakes can be a problem. I strongly suggest a snake load by CCI. It could save your life.

I recommend the trail headed north from Steamboat to Laramie. You'll observe bighorn sheep, elk, mulies, bears, and perhaps a cougar. Another favorite is the trail just outside of Rifle headed into the high country of Gunnison.

Good hiking to you!
TR

 

[Redhawk1]

44 Mag is the way I would go, home defense, load 44 specials and woods carry the 44 Mag. That is just me, I like big holes.

 

[NewGuy77]

In reading my last post, it seemed like I was going to shoot a buddy of mine - I assure you that is not what I meant.

I have heard that in order to accomplish mushrooming of a bullet, it needs to be travelling at over 1200 fps and the 357 only gets to 1215. Is this accurate?

I do not reload. Which might offer more versatility - I know that I can drop as low as 38s for a 357 or the 44 sp or mag, but if I do not reload, how poweful can a 357 get?

Thank you Chuck Perry, your energy equation really helped me understand the difference.

Also, how does the fully lugged barrel help? Does this just add weight? This might be getting off topic... just curious.

 

[jmr40]

I'm with Redhawk1. for defense against humans a good .44 special is better in my opinion than .357 loads without all of the recoil and muzzle blast of the .357. I know others will disagree, but that is how I see it. If needed the .44 mags offer more punch than the .357.

That is not to say the .357 is a bad choice. With proper loads it will probably do just fine. I just feel the .44 offers more versatility.

 

[Oro]

I have been exactly where you are. I did some serious research last year on this subject after we started hiking and riding in some big black bear country (northern cascades) - a few too many maulings reported and we'd seen one up close (not a mauling, a big black bear). I know in general they scurry away (the one I saw did) - but when camping with friends and with horses tethered (which I think of as "dinner on a rope" for mountain predators), I don't want to take the chance the animal will repeat that behavior.

There has been some great advice above about 44 vs. 357 and their ballistics. I could find no automatic handgun I owned or could buy that gave me the confidence in both the platform and the cartridge that I felt totally comfortable with it.After EXHAUSTIVE research and advice, I decided to get a 3" S&W magnum for easier carry and .44 lethality. Tthe 3" gives up very little to the 4" in velocity or recoil, and it let me get more controllable (for me) round butt grips.

After lots of testing with .44 mag and four or five .357 handguns (2.5" and 4", k frame, L frame, and N frame), my other 1/2 is carrying a 4" 686 with Double Tap "woods" loads (180 gr. WFNGC lead @ 1300fps in a 4" gun. $33/50 rounds). She did not like the .44magnum recoil, and I wasn't comfortable with only one of us being armed. The 686 is just a wonderful platform for powerful 357 magnum loads and swallows them like a champ. It is the easiest-shooting 357 platform we could find.

Bullet selection is key here, too, according to the experts. Lead, hard lead at that, and flat nosed.

Bottom line, In the lower 48, I'd feel OK in a defense scenario with a 4" L frame 586/686 and the right load. I can shoot that gun better than a bear load .44mag - and anyone will, too - just physics. While I do have the .44mag, I am comfortable with the .357, or else I wouldn't let her carry it, or myself sometimes, too, when I am not in the more dangerous areas.

 

[Oro]

I have been exactly where you are. I did some serious research last year on this subject after we started hiking and riding in some big black bear country (northern cascades) - a few too many maulings reported and we'd seen one up close (not a mauling, a big black bear). I know in general they scurry away (the one I saw did) - but when camping with friends and with horses tethered (which I think of as "dinner on a rope" for mountain predators), I don't want to take the chance the animal will repeat that behavior.

There has been some great advice above about 44 vs. 357 and their ballistics. I could find no automatic handgun I owned or could buy that gave me the confidence in both the platform and the cartridge that I felt totally comfortable with it.After EXHAUSTIVE research and advice, I decided to get a 3" S&W magnum for easier carry and .44 lethality. Tthe 3" gives up very little to the 4" in velocity or recoil, and it let me get more controllable (for me) round butt grips.

After lots of testing with .44 mag and four or five .357 handguns (2.5" and 4", k frame, L frame, and N frame), my other 1/2 is carrying a 4" 686 with Double Tap "woods" loads (180 gr. WFNGC lead @ 1300fps in a 4" gun. $33/50 rounds). She did not like the .44magnum recoil, and I wasn't comfortable with only one of us being armed. The 686 is just a wonderful platform for powerful 357 magnum loads and swallows them like a champ. It is the easiest-shooting 357 platform we could find.

Bullet selection is key here, too, according to the experts. Lead, hard lead at that, and flat nosed.

Bottom line, I'd feel OK in defense with a 4" L frame 586/686 and the right load. I can shoot that gun better than a bear load .44mag - and anyone will, too. While I do have the .44mag, I am comfortable with the .357 in the lower 48, or else I wouldn't let her carry it, or myself sometimes, too, when I am not in the more dangerous areas.

 

[JNewell]

I'm going to play the contrarian and, even though I'm more a revolver shooter than a pistol shooter, suggest you take one more look at the Glock 29 or 20 in 10mm. The ballistics are very impressive, recoil is very manageable because of the low bore axis, and in all honesty a Glock will probably run when everything else has quit. If it doesn't, it can be stripped and cleaned out incredibly easily. Finally, it is (especially a 29) more compact than any equivalent revolver. Footnote: if you do go that way, I'd put the NY trigger spring into the gun, given your purposes and needs.

 

[countryrebel]

I have and use the glock 20 10mm for hiking but unless you have large hands forget it.I would lean toward the 44 in your case,very wide range in power factor to suit all yours needs.Also fire a few rounds of the 357 with no hearing protecion and your ears will ring for days.

 

[Swamp Rat]

Well, if you do plan on hunting (big game) with it in Colorado, the 357 is not "legal". That is definitely something to consider. The rule states that a hunting handgun must have a minimum 4" barrel and maintain 550 ftlbs of energy at 50 yds, as rated by the manufacturer. Effectively, this makes a .41 mag the minimum legal revolver.....

This sounds kinda vague and I wonder what would happen if challenged by DNR as Buffalo Bore manufactured ammo rates there 180 gr. LFN-GC .357mag ammo at a ME of 783 ft. lbs.@ 1400fps. My personal hand loads move a bit faster than that out of my Ruger Bisley/Vaquero.

My preference for a .357 is based on weight of the gun, amount of recoil, ability to get off an accurate second shot. 357 fits this bill nicely and my hunting rifle shoots the same round and bumps the speed to just under 1900fps. Here in the mountains we have plenty of bears and have never felt undergunned nor have I lost a deer or pig, and by switching out ammo to a 75grWC I can bust tree rats without distroying the meat.

 

[Swamp Rat]

double tap

 

[GJgo]

I'd say that if you read the rules and are within them, used a factory load that is documented, and feel comfortable if you are confronted by a DOW officer, then you should be fine. I wouldn't recommend a .357 handload in CO however..

FWIW, my 629 classic with the power port doesn't hardly kick at all. Maybe 2-3" of muzzle lift with 240gr handloads at 1400 fps. It is accurate, and follow up shots are easy.

 

[NWdude83]

Either one should be fine for both activities. S&W makes a 10mm revolver called the 610.

 

[dicky r]

I own, shoot and reload both calibers, although my .44 is a S&W model 21 in .44 spl, not magnum. My personal feeling is that a 4" barreled gun that I shoot a lot in practice in either caliber with a good heavy load will win the day. I typically carry the 44 spl in the timber (Wyoming - ANY bear and mountain lion country) , and I don't feel undergunned. You might check out a copy of Elmer Keith's book - Sixguns, a definitive work on the subject. Just make sure that which ever one you choose, you shoot - and not just 50 - 100 rounds a year. In bear country you should be able to draw, shoot and reload, mounted or on foot, comfortably enough so that if the ballon does go up, you can account for yourself. If not, it won't matter what you carry.

 

[Snapping Twig]

I made that choice many years ago and the answer for me was a 3" .44 magnum.

You can shoot souped up specials - @ 1000 fps - and eliminate the heavy recoil while retaining the punch you may need for SD in the woods.

My .44 is Mag-Na-Ported and trust me when I say it makes a difference!

The .357 might do the job with a cast 170g home load, but considering the caliber difference (hole size) between it and the .44, why take a chance on a smaller hole?

I choose a 265g cast bullet for woods use with a full charge of H110 behind it, but I practice quite often.

A 4" .44 is the do-all, be-all woods pistol IMO, followed closely by a .45LC.




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[Elvishead]

I only own .357s (and semi's in 9mm's), and four of them, in a 2", 3" 4" (8shot) 5" (8 shot)

If i's go instwo the wood. I'z be handling my S&W 327 8 shot .357.

I'd load it with 4 buffalo bore 125g (1700 fps at 825lbs) and the 4 Double Tap200g hard cast (130000000 fps 750lbs), and go every other round of each.

I call it the Hail Merry load.

 

[rolltide]

There is a fellow named JJ Hack that is a professional hunter in Africa now, but used to be in charge of trapping and killing bears for a large lumber company. He has shot around 100 black bears with a handgun. In addition, he has guided for hunters in the US on black bear handgun hunts and seen first hand what several different calibers will do to scared bears treed by dogs and bears that are really in a bad humor (with one leg in a trap) and intent on hurting somebody. Hack carries a 44 Mag and recommends full power 240gr or heavier JHP loads, NOT HARDCAST, FOR BLACK BEAR PROTECTION. The recommendation for JHP and not hardcast is adamant due to his extensive personal experience with BOTH in protection situations. HE DOES NOT RECOMMEND ANYTHING SMALLER THAN A 44 MAG FOR BLACK BEAR PROTECTION because he has seen too many instances where 357's, 9mm's, 45acp's, 40's and the like that his hunting clients used failed to stop bears and he had to finish them off with his 44 before the bears killed his dogs or hurt people or simply ran off wounded and had to be tracked down so they did not become a danger to others. He says that the 44 full bore heavy JHP has "crumple power" meaning that when AN ANGRY BEAR is shot with that kind of load he STOPS. He has posted extensively about it over on Graybeards Outdoors (I can dig up his posts for you if needed.) The only reason I would go with anything less than a 44 Mag for bear protection is if I absolutely could not shoot the 44 Mag accurately enough to do the job. If I had to rely on anything smaller than a 44 Mag for bear protection and thought there was a serious chance of a bear encounter, I would probably stay home. If I were going no matter what, I would carry the largest caliber I could keep in a 12" or less group at 25 yards or less.

In Africa, Hack carries a 458 Lott for protection of his hunting clients against dangerous game. This is a hard hitting gun on both ends and will stop charges from the heaviest most dangerous game in the world. He states that before the hunting season, he fires 5 or so reduced loads with the Lott to get check out the gun at the end of his shooting session with "light" recoil guns like the 375 H&H. This allows him to practice with the gun without developing a flinch. As the season draws closer, he moves to a few full power loads at the end of his shooting sessions. Then he only shoots it "on the job" during the season. Of course he has been hunting and guiding for years so he is already a certified expert with his weapons. He does this because extended practice with full power 458 Lott loads can detach retinas in your eyes and cause nerve damage.

If I were really recoil sensitive, which I am not, I would train that way with a 44 Mag. Fire LOTS of reduced loads so that manual of arms with the gun itself becomes second nature, then a cylinder of full power loads at the end of each session. That way you develop proficiency with the gun, without developing a flinch, and still develop proficiency and comfort with full power loads. The Ruger Redhawk and Super Redhawk or Dan Wesson 44 Mags are MUCH easier to shoot than the S&W 44's because of the increased weight of the guns compared to the S&W 29. The Dan Wesson is probably the most inherently accurate of the bunch, but accuracy is still good to excellent with most Ruger's and S&W's, or can be made so by a good gun smith.

My favorite all time woods gun is my 4" Dan Wesson 357. It is easy to carry and shoot and is accurate enough for small game and powerful enough for hunting big game in a pinch, even if it is not the best gun for that purpose. It will also handle defense against humans as well if not better than any other revolver or semi-auto caliber. That said, in bear country I go to a 4" Dan Wesson 44 Mag. It is heavier, but worth it in a life or death situations, which are precisely the situations we carry guns for anyway.

Just my $.02

Roll Tide