357SIG 125gr V-CROWN JHP

[vaalpens]

I picked up a box of factory 357SIG 125gr V-CROWN JHP ammo this week to compare it against my V-CROWN loads. I was mostly interested in the velocity I would get out of my 3.9" barrel P229, but I also tested accuracy. Accuracy was tested at 15 yards.

I think the factory ammo performed well, except that the velocity was lower than the published 1356 ft/sec. My load I was testing is using BE-86, and definitely felt more stout. Based on the velocity I saw with the factory load, it seems I should be able to use a lower charge that is more accurate to match the feel and velocity of the factory ammo.

Following are the numbers from the factory load:


357sig, P229, 3.9"
Case: SIG
COL: 1.113"
Sierra, 125gr, VCROWNJHP, SIG, gr, SIG
Average: 1251
ES: 37
SD: 15.7
Force: 434
PF: 156
Velocities: 1263, 1235, 1249, 1239, 1272
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.99"
Test Date: 10/04/2020

And following are the numbers from my BE-86 load:


357sig, P229, 3.9"
Case: FC
COL: 1.125"
Sierra, 125gr, VCROWNJHP, BE86, 7.8gr, WSP
Average: 1287
ES: 45
SD: 18.8
Force: 460
PF: 160
Velocities: 1280, 1303, 1259, 1293, 1304
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.99"
Test Date: 10/10/2016

 

[fxvr5]

I don't see a meaningful difference in accuracy - group size-wise.

POI might be a little different.

 

[vaalpens]

I don't see a meaningful difference in accuracy - group size-wise.

POI might be a little different.

I used a scope that was not zeroed, so POI is basically where the scoped was aimed when I mounted it.

I think the factory load is a bit more accurate since I could see I had a good grouping going, then had the flyer at the bottom. All mental.

 

[fxvr5]

The target will tell you about accuracy, not wishful thinking. Your group sizes are within 0.004" of each other. That means they are the same.

5 shots is not enough rounds to tell you about accuracy. 5-shot groups with the same ammo can vary by a factor of 3 or more. The same is true of 15-shot groups, so your results don't have anything intelligent to say about comparative accuracy.

Shoot at least 25 shots into one group with the same ammo, then get back to us.

Shoot five 5-shot groups with the same ammo and get back to us. You'll learn that not all 5-shot groups are the exact same size.

If you want to shoot really small groups every time, just shoot one round and call it good.

5-shot groups: https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/9/25/accuracy-testing-shortcomings-of-the-five-shot-group/

15-shot groups: https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/

 

[vaalpens]

The target will tell you about accuracy, not wishful thinking. Your group sizes are within 0.004" of each other. That means they are the same.

5 shots is not enough rounds to tell you about accuracy. 5-shot groups with the same ammo can vary by a factor of 3 or more. The same is true of 15-shot groups, so your results don't have anything intelligent to say about comparative accuracy.

Shoot at least 25 shots into one group with the same ammo, then get back to us.

Shoot five 5-shot groups with the same ammo and get back to us. You'll learn that not all 5-shot groups are the exact same size.

If you want to shoot really small groups every time, just shoot one round and call it good.

5-shot groups: https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/9/25/accuracy-testing-shortcomings-of-the-five-shot-group/

15-shot groups: https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/

Thanks for the comments and thanks for sharing those links.

It makes a lot of sense to have more shots in the group when we want to determine accuracy, but the 5 shot group has been working for me to get some idea which of my loads are better grouping loads. I normally use the grouping and chrono data to decide which loads need further evaluation. With further evaluation I normally increase the distance and/or increase the number of rounds in the group.

In a perfect world I would use a Ransom Rest and evaluate larger groups, but money and time normally limits what can be tested.

 

[Dudedog]

Thanks for posting the info.


Some people are big to complain about 5 shot groups but I don't see them posting their 25 shot + groups for us.......

Yes there are limits with 5 shot groups but I find them helpful. (my mag holds 10 for the gun I shoot the most, so I usually do 10)
If I have a good group I will test the ammo again later to get some idea of if the group "repeats"
My method may or may not be valid from a statistical standpoint but it works for me. I am not saying they are a valid statistical result of how that ammo will shoot.
When I post it I am not saying it was a "valid" test just what I got when I did my limited test. I figure people can form their own opinion of what it's worth. (nothing or something)
Since I am not using a Ransom rest for testing and I don't do my shooting using a rest, lots of other things come in to the equation as well.


Larger samples are better but, how large is large enough?
25, 50, 500, 1000?
To tell we would have to do them all to see if the results from the 25/50/500 round tests could be be considered valid,
and since I was not a Stat major, get a Six Sigma guy to do the math to help me tell how large a sample is needed to be "valid" based on the results of the tests I did of various sample sizes.
I see various things saying 5 is bad and 25 is ok, but don't recall seeing say a 25 vs 500 to tell me 25 is enough.
(and of course then that will just give me a number for what a valid sample size is in that gun when the test was done, who knows my gun may be different)

Of course then once I have a number for a valid test I would need to repeat it at different temps, where I am it may be between 30 and 115+ so if I test at 50 the results may be worthless at 115.

Since I have not won the lottery and have the $ and time, I will just blindly go thru life the way I am with no "valid" tests using what my gut tells me shoots well for me.


Thanks again for taking the time to do test and posting your results for all of us, I appreciate it.

 

[fxvr5]

Some people are big to complain about 5 shot groups but I don't see them posting their 25 shot + groups for us.......

That doesn't mean they haven't done 25-shot + groups.

 

[vaalpens]

Thanks for posting the info.

You're welcome. Maybe there is a 357sig in your future.

If I have a good group I will test the ammo again later to get some idea of if the group "repeats"

That is what I also strive for. I have a few loads that I can test multiple times, and they always performs within range. Some other once will perform some times, but other times not. A bigger shot group will probably just underscore what I already know, that some are more consistent than others.

One of my 357sig loads that always performs well is the RMR 147gr FN bullet (old plated and new jacketed) with 5.5gr of CFE Pistol. The loads I have tested at 15 yards gave me groupings of .521", .55", .710" and 1.120" at 25 yards. I have 10 left of these 147gr bullets, and will load them with the same load, but use the Federal No 100 match primers. I will be interesting to see how they perform as a 10 shot group over 25 yards.

 

[fxvr5]

That is what I also strive for. I have a few loads that I can test multiple times, and they always performs within range. Some other once will perform some times, but other times not. A bigger shot group will probably just underscore what I already know, that some are more consistent than others.

Or that your assumption that every group will be about the same size is incorrect.

What you call inconsistency might be a misinterpretation of what is actually normal variation in group size.

These are things to consider.

 

[Dudedog]

I can help with some more 147s

 

[vaalpens]

I can help with some more 147s

Here we go again.

 

[JimKirk]

147 grain XTP and a dose of 800X will get me 1300+ fps out my 357 SIG..... What's not to like.....

 

[vaalpens]

147 grain XTP and a dose of 800X will get me 1300+ fps out my 357 SIG..... What's not to like.....

Jimkirk, thanks for the information. I hope you are doing well.

I have decided long time ago I can't compete with JimKirk when it comes to 357sig higher velocities. For those looking for some high velocities, JimKirk has done it and can provide some advice.

 

[JimKirk]

Well ....my "gun" is a little longer than your "gun"

 

[vaalpens]

I just want to add some extra facts regarding the 357sig V-CROWN factory loads since I pulled one of the bullets.

I bought the #9925 bullet about 2 years ago. The factory load uses a different longer bullet. The bullet length for factory is .5725", where the #9925 bullet is .5365". The mouth on the factory bullet is a smaller diameter, but they look like the same construction.


The factory bullet had a COL of 1.113, case of .860, which meant the bullet was seated .3195" deep.

The powder that came out weighed 8.9gr and it seems the case fill was up to the bottom of the bullet. I don't know if it is compressed, but it probably touched. With the weight it seems like a slower powder, but I'm not even going to try and guess what powder. I definitely haven't tested an 8.9gr load only delivering 1251ft/s.

Following is a picture of the powder. Not very good though. I'll try and take a better picture if anybody is interested.

 

[fxvr5]

I bought the #9925 bullet about 2 years ago. The factory load uses a different longer bullet. The bullet length for factory is .5725", where the #9925 bullet is .5365". The mouth on the factory bullet is a smaller diameter, but they look like the same construction.

The long bullet looks more like their 9mm bullet. Out of curiosity, weigh them. The 9mm is 124 grains, the 357 Sig bullet is 125 grains. Also, the long bullet is longer than my box of 9mm bullets, which measure 0.554".

 

[vaalpens]

The long bullet looks more like their 9mm bullet. Out of curiosity, weigh them. The 9mm is 124 grains, the 357 Sig bullet is 125 grains. Also, the long bullet is longer than my box of 9mm bullets, which measure 0.554".

The bullet weighed in at 124.1gr vs the 125.2gr of the #9925 bullets I load. It also seems that the ogive of the bullet was inside the mouth of the case.

 

[fxvr5]

The bullet weighed in at 124.1gr vs the 125.2gr of the #9925 bullets I load. It also seems that the ogive of the bullet was inside the mouth of the case.

Yeah, that's what it looked like to me based on what appears to be a 'crimp' mark on the bullet.