38 and 357

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Catpop

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I don't know why I never picked up on this until now. Must have been my comments on loading 357 to 38 spc oal.
38 spc case 1.155, 357 case 1.290, difference of .135
38 spc oal 1.550, 357 oal 1.590 difference of 0.040
So a 357 case reloaded to .38 spc specs only reduces the internal volume by .040 given the same bootlit. Not the .135 as I first thought. Interesting.
Catpop
 
You must be looking a a Lyman manual?

I don't know how they came up with some of those creative OAL's they show in .38 & .357??

But the .357 case is .135" longer as you noted.

So if you seat the same bullet in each to the crimp groove and crimp it?

The .357 OAL will be .135" longer then the .38 OAL.

There is no way it can't be.

That is also why you can use a .135" thick die washer to raise a .38 Spl die in the press and seat the same bullet in the longer .357 case without having to re-adjust the die.

rc
 
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But the .357 case is .135" longer as you noted.

So if you seat the same bullet in each to the crimp groove and crimp it?

The .357 OAL will be .135" longer then the .38 OAL.

There is no way it can't be.

rc

Yep....pretty much, since the cannelure is what determines how much bullet is in the case. Using the same cannelured bullet will give the same amount of bullet in the case and the same resulting difference in OAL.
 
Thanks for input! But I think you missed my point. I'm not talking about cannelures or crimping, just actual data. I had to stop using the crimping or cannelure in order to use the Missouri 158 lswc kieth style in my blackhawk lately anyway.
I was just surprised the .135 really turned out to be only .040 given no crimping or cannelure. Seemed strange to me.
Seems the more mature I get, the harder it is to get it from my mind into words.
catpop
 
Thanks for input! But I think you missed my point. I'm not talking about cannelures or crimping, just actual data. I had to stop using the crimping or cannelure in order to use the Missouri 158 lswc kieth style in my blackhawk lately anyway.
I was just surprised the .135 really turned out to be only .040 given no crimping or cannelure. Seemed strange to me.
Seems the more mature I get, the harder it is to get it from my mind into words.
catpop
The crimp groove is the point. You are supposed to crimp into the manufacturers supplied crimp groove which is correct for that bullet, not try to match the OAL in load data for revolvers.

Like rc said, I have no idea where Lyman got that OAL because when loading most .38 Special bullets the OAL comes out to between 1.450" and 1.480" unless the nose of the bullet is very long like that Lyman mold bullet.

Why did you have to stop using the crimp groove on the MBC bullets?
 
bullets of the same weight are not going to be the same shape. Took me a while to get over that concept. However, the case volume is what matters with loading 38 special cases to 357 magnum like elmer and skeeter did in the day.

bullet they liked was made so the bottom crimp groove would give the same case capacity for 357 loads in the 38 case.
 
ArchAngelCD,
Long story but it is on an old post by me and I don't know how to access on my phone. Short of it, when I crimp just behind front diving band on Missouri 158 LSWC Kieth style with a case properly trimmed to 1.580 I get an oal of 1.610. Which may not affect some pistols, but in my 1973 Rugby Blackhawk it is too long. The cartridge jams in the throat, raises the pressure, and causes hard rotation on the cylinder as it comes into line with barrel ( I call this going to battery, but others have a hard time with this term)
So a number of things were tried 1. Crimping into the front driving band as suggested by one on this thread... did not work as the 18 br bootlits only slid forward again to 1.610. 2. Trimming 50 cases back to 1.565... did work but a pita keeping those cases separated from stockpile. 3. Loading with no crimp...which works fine at present 4. Another way I am experimenting with now and will reveal later if it works.
Problem is I really like the price and overall quality of Missouri so I am going to great lengths to find a way to make it happen.
I always take the hard road, it's just who I am.
TX catpop
 
Rcmodel,
The max oal came straight from saami charts, not Lyman; however they are identical in my 1973 Lyman manual.
Who establishes the crimp groove placement on commercial jacketed and cast bullets. Is this also a function of saami?
Just curious as I see quite a difference there.
TX for all your valuable input!
Catpop
 
Catpop, I think the confusion is because you did not state in your OP that you were not crimping into a cannelure, but adjusting the seating depth to fit your gun. Thus the basics for loading revolver rounds, with bullets intended for use in a revolver, do not apply.

The cannelure on any one bullet is determined by the manufacturer. It comes down to the ogive/profile of the bullet, giving enough seated base to give good tension on the bullet and what performed well in test firings. In most cases, exact cannelure position is different amongst manufacturers even with the same weight and same profile bullets. This is why one cannot use given OALs unless the brass is trimmed exactly as the recipe brass an you are using the exact bullet used in the recipe. This is why two different brands of bullets of similar weight and profile may have significant differences in OAL. I load several different brands of jacketed bullets in my revolvers. Generally I buy what has performed well, yet cost the least. Sometimes if one brand is on sale and cheaper than my regular brand I buy them instead. Before I load the new and different bullets, I compare how much base is below the cannelure as this and not OAL determines how much, if any, I adjust my starting load. More base below the cannelure, I start lighter. If same amount of base below cannelure, I'll start with a similar charge. I have yet to ever measure OAL on a revolver round because I always crimp in the cannelure.
 
As far as I know each bullet and bullet mold manufacture establishes the crimp location.
But they have to pay some heed to SAAMI Max OAL specs to insure the loads will fit in any revolver cylinder, feed in a lever-action rifle, etc.

The thing is though, every bullet shape and design my end up at a different OAL then 1.590" when crimped in the crimp groove or cannelure.

That length isn't set in stone, as its just the MAX OAL that will work in everything.

rc
 
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