38 s&w ctg

[krauseb]

Checked every where and haven't found anything about a 38 S&W CTG five shot revolver, hammerless 2" barrel. 61XXX sn.
Anyone know anything about it?
Bob.

 

[deadin]

38 S&W CTG

is what it is chambered to shoot. It may or may not be an actual Smith & Wesson. What are the other markings? Top of the barrel, etc. Any chance for a picture or two?

 

[Jim Watson]

Is is a Smith & Wesson revolver or just in .38 S&W caliber?
If S&W, it sounds like a Safety Hammerless Third Model as made from 1890 til 1898.
My book does not show it to have been made with a 2" barrel, it has likely been sawn off. The 2" barrel did not come out until the fifth model in 1907.

 

[krauseb]

38 s&w

It's a 38 Cal. S&W no sawed barrel, no copy, if it was a copy I would have said so.

 

[Husker_Fan]

You have two posts, only one before Mr. Watson's. That post made it look like you didn't know much of anything about the gun. His question was a pretty fair one and he is a great source for the information you are looking for. You might try posting some pictures for the S&W folks around here.

 

[rcmodel]

Yesser!
Getting off to a great start with one of THR gun experts most likely to be able to help you!

Post a photo or two, or some patent dates and such on the barrel, and somebody might be able to positively ID it.

rc

 

[Old Fuff]

krauseb:

Without a photograph we have to do a lot of speculating. Smith & Wesson only made one hammerless revolver chambered in .38 S&W. It was called the Safety Hammerless or New Departure model. Points of identification would be.

Top-break design, with 5-shot cylinder chambered in .38 S&W.

Inclosed hammer, with a grip safety mounted on the back of the handle (has to be squeezed before you can pull the trigger).

Round butt, with black hard-rubber stocks. Checkered walnut or pearl were optional.

Full blue, or nickel plate with a blued trigger guard and barrel latch. Triggers were color casehardened.

Barrel lengths of 3 1/4, 4, 5 and 6 inches were standard (measured from the front cylinder face to the end of the muzzle). Other lengths between 1 1/4 to 6 inches could be had, but only by special order.

Copies made by others are frequently encountered, but they don't have the grip safety.

Most original 2-inch barrels have patent dates stamped on the side of the barrel, and the stamping, *38 S&W Ctg.* will be centered. Longer barrels that have been cut will have what's left of the patent dates stamped on top of the barrel rib, and the "Ctg." stamp will be off-center.

Hopefully you will find this to be useful.

 

[krauseb]

I don't know how to add picture. It's all original. 5 Shot Swing out cylinder, S&W wood grips, front blade sight, no rear sight, only groove. S&W trade mark, made in Springfield Mass

 

[Jim Watson]

A swing out cylinder hammerless .38 S&W rings no bells with me.

All the hammerless .38 S&Ws I have ever seen were topbreaks, all the hammerless swingouts were .38 Special.

Maybe you have a real oddball. Maybe somebody can help you with a picture of it.

 

[Nicodemus38]

if its an actual swingout cylinder wouldnt it be a terrier or a victory model?

 

[isp2605]

Wondering if it's a true hammerless or if it has a bobbed hammer and he's calling that a hammerless.
When you pull the trigger do you see a hammer rise and fall?

 

[Old Fuff]

if its an actual swingout cylinder wouldnt it be a terrier or a victory model?

Not if the description in the opening post is correct. Neither of the above had an internal hammer.

 

[krauseb]

I guess it would be called a bobbed hammer. It can't be pulled back with the thumb.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi krauseb,,




Does it look like this ( though in this instance, yours having had the Hammer Spur removed ) -


http://v4.beta.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=140016594

 

[Old Fuff]

I guess it would be called a bobbed hammer. It can't be pulled back with the thumb

.

Now that makes a big difference!

So far we've used up a lot of bandwidth going in the wrong direction because of an incomplete/incorrect description. I still can't be sure, but it is most likely that you have a S&W .38/32 Terrier. These were small 5-shot revolvers chambered in .38 S&W. with 2" barrels. They were introduced in 1936, and built on a .32 size frame. Production was discontinued in 1940 because of World War Two and resumed after the war in 1949. In 1957 they were assigned the model number 32. You have what is known as a "post war/ pre-model 32 that was made during the early 1950's.

Without a picture I can't tell you more or confirm the identification.

 

[isp2605]

Quote:
I guess it would be called a bobbed hammer. It can't be pulled back with the thumb.

Now that makes a big difference!

Sure does. When he said it had a swing out cylinder and was in .38 S&W that's when I figured he didn't know the difference between hammerless and a bobbed hammer which is why I posed the question.

 

[Old Fuff]

You were right to pose the question, but the problem is that S&W has been known to make revolvers for the foreign export market that aren't cataloged or sold in the United States. Many of these were made for government or law enforcement organizations.

What if I told you that I had a Model 19 with fixed sights, no large underlug, 4-inch barrel, and target stocks? Oh, also with the narrow Model 10 hammer?

No such thing? Look up the Model 19-P (no, that isn't a typo).

 

[isp2605]

That's true. But taking the odds into account of what is most likely to be seen then it's not likely he had a hammerless .38 S&W with swing out cylinder. Easier to eliminate the most common possibilities first. I learned a long time ago when someone who isn't familar with firearms start describing things that I don't take what they describe as being 100% accurate. Figure first what's likely the case then go from there.

 

[Husker_Fan]

Old Fuff

Is that one of the French guns I've seen pics of around here?

 

[Old Fuff]

I don't have my reference handy but I believe somewhere in South America. But you could be right, it's a French sort of thing. Now that I think about it, it might have had the model 19 style underlug, but the top of the barrel forging was milled to remove the front sight ramp and make it into a lower front sight blade. I have no idea why they didn't save some money by ordering regular model 13's with target stocks (which seem out of place) but maybe money wasn't the object.

isp2605

In this instance you're right, but in others where information was lacking I've sometimes come to the "obvious conclusion" too quickly. It is best to draw out information until you're pretty sure. It's better to go slow and be right, then go fast and be wrong. This is especially so when you don't have a picture.

 

[isp2605]

isp2605

In this instance you're right, but in others where information was lacking I've sometimes come to the "obvious conclusion" too quickly. It is best to draw out information until you're pretty sure. It's better to go slow and be right, then go fast and be wrong. This is especially so when you don't have a picture.

And that is exactly what I was doing when I asked if it was a bobbed hammer - dig out the info based on what was known, what was the most obvious, and what were the most likely choices.
We could be fairly sure it was a swing out cylinder from his description that it wasn't a top break. He read ".38 S&W" on the barrel. The point of confusion was the "hammerless" part as it didn't fit with the rest of his description. That left the most obvious - bobbed hammer. Had he come back that it was completely enclosed then go to the next most obvious choices.
It could have been some obscure possibility but there are heck of alot more .38 Terriers running around that there are some obscure or custom made thing which made it more likely to be a bobbed Terrier than some custom made model. Eliminate the likely possibilities first. In this case the most likely possibility was he didn't know the difference between a bobbed and hammerless.
It's all a matter of realizing that just because someone describes something as such and such doesn't mean they know what they're describing. Eliminate the most likely possibilities first before going off on a tangent.

 

[Old Fuff]

You've made your point, and I somewhat agree. But what I was trying to eliminate was the possibility that S&W had made a special run of early Centennial Model revolvers (pre model 40 or 42) chambered in .38 S&W for a foreign distributor or government. There, the .38 S&W cartridge remained popular for a lot longer then it did here. While this might seem unlikely, it was entirely possible because they had barrels, and cylinders in stock. Doing something like this wasn't all that unusual.

 

[isp2605]

But what I was trying to eliminate was the possibility that S&W had made a special run of early Centennial Model revolvers (pre model 40 or 42) chambered in .38 S&W for a foreign distributor or government.

And I was trying to eliminate the possibility that he wasn't describing it accurately and that it was a bobbed hammer. There are a whole lot more guns out there with bobbed hammers than special run Centennials.
Sorry if I stole your thunder. I just went for what was more likely than playing that it was something rarely seen.

 

[Old Fuff]

Thunder? What thunder?

Given the limited information that was provided, there were a number of possibilities. Getting the right answer required that wrong ones be eliminated as we went along. I did this professionally for many years when my clients depended on absolutely accurate information because sometimes a lot of money might be on the line. Making mistakes wouldn’t be tolerated very long, therefore meticulous examination beat quick conclusions.

If one is truly knowledgeable about how things were (and are) done at any of the major manufacturers they’d know that many things happened that never made it into the catalogs. When a genuine example shows up it usually becomes very valuable on the collectors market. A mis-identification could cost an owner who had no idea what he or she had.

It isn’t that I’m never wrong, just that I try to keep mistakes limited to as few as possible.

 

[Husker_Fan]

I don't have my reference handy but I believe somewhere in South America. But you could be right, it's a French sort of thing. Now that I think about it, it might have had the model 19 style underlug, but the top of the barrel forging was milled to remove the front sight ramp and make it into a lower front sight blade. I have no idea why they didn't save some money by ordering regular model 13's with target stocks (which seem out of place) but maybe money wasn't the object.

The one I am thinking of had the model 19 underlug with fixed sights and was stamped as a mod. 19. I searched but didn't see it. I believe it was sold under contract to a Frech LEA and was followed quickly by the development of the model 13. As I recall there were very few of these made and a member here had some great pictures of them.

Of course, it could have just been a wonderful dream.