.38 S&W + HBWC wierdness

[heviarti]

So my buddy and I are at Cabela's looking for some .38 special. Not a spot. I already reload, so we grabbed some bullets and dies. The only bullet they had that we could run in both .38 special and .38 smith was a plated Berry's 148 gn. HBWC. I'm still a little sketchy about whether I want to run a plated bullet in my smith and wesson safety hammerless.

My buddy had about shot up all the .38 smith, and with the acquisition of a .38 special I'll likely not be cutting any more special cases down to fit the smith.

So, we decided to load some test loads in .38 S&W. I tried my usual safe for the breaktop load of 1.5 gn. Bullseye. neither the plated bullets or the jacketed bullets I loaded for the colt (.38 smith, but with a .38 spl barrel) would make it out of the barrel. I reset my powder measure, and got 3 gn. does great in the colt with jacketed, but about half the HBWCs stick in the barrel. Not just the base... the whole bullet. 3 gn is listed as a .38 spec. heavy load, and is twice what I load for a similar weight bullet in .38 smith. I usually run a 146 lead bullet.. ***?

 

[NCsmitty]

All that I can think of is that you need to put a heavier crimp on it.
The max load listed at one site is 2.7gr of Bullseye with 148 Speer HBWC developing around 750fps out of a 4" barrel in the 38S&W.
Perhaps the Berry's bullet is not taking a good crimp with your current setup and not developing enough pressure. Do the bullets measure .358" before loading?
I can only speculate about your issue, as I don't know your loading technique.

NCsmitty

 

[Steve C]

A load of 3.0 grains of Bullseye should work fine for a 148gr HPWC in the .38 spl. Make sure you load them with the hollow to the bottom and not try to load them upside down as a hollow point. Seat the bullet flush to the case mouth and put a slight roll crimp over the end of the bullet. Just enough to bevel the case mouth a bit.

Hollow base WC's are designed to expand the skirt into the bore from the pressure of the burning powder. Speer #13 gives a Bullseye load of 2.8 grs start at 741 fps to a max of 3.1 grs at 799 fps. I can see why 1.5grs didn't send the bullet out the barrel. Don't load below 2.8grs. Do not try to go heavier as the skirt can expand tight enough in the bore to blow out the center of the bullet and leave the remainder as a bore obstruction.

A loaded wadcutter should look like this:

 

[pikebishop]

if you are shooting the 38s&w cartridge and not 38 special I would strongly advise against using hbwc bullets in this caliber 38s&w uses .36 bore diameter and not .357. A well documented phenomenon of skirt separation and lodgeing in barrel can happen putting a hole in the target when the front of the hbwc separates leaving the skirt in the bore. shooting another round behind it usually causes problems like bulged barell etc.I believe the cause of this is the skirts willingness to expand to the large bore while the solid part of the bullet can;t causing separation. this is hard to detect unlike a squib as there is both recoil and impact. however the next shot behaves much like a squib and usually results with a damaged firearm. all my reloading manuals show solid bullet designs only for 38s&w. If you search around there are casters out there that will size to .36 this usually helps accuracy

 

[243winxb]

38 s&w

A jacketed bullet needs more powder compared to an all lead bullet. The friction is higher on jacketed as it swages into the lands. I would guess a plated bullet would do almost the same as a jacketed bullet, more friction. As far as a hollow base plated bullet, who knows?? The bullet diameter comes into play. 38 S&W is .360" so the bullets you have are undersize for the caliber, possible blowby on firing because the plated hollow base is not expanding? If the Whole bullet sticks in the barrel, an increase in powder is needed?? Total Guess on my part.

 

[243winxb]

Looks like the COAL should be on the long side. Bullet Not seated flush with the case mouth. http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=18279

 

[loadedround]

A 2.7 gr load of Bullseye with a lead 148 gr HBWC bullet seated flush to the case mouth has been the standard target load for 38 special revolvers and semi autos for almost half a century and I would venture a guess that I've seen several hundred thousand of these rounds fired and have fired many thousand myself. This hollow base bullet is designed to flare out and seal the bore when fired to give constant pressure on the bullet for accuracy. As others have said, friction with those very light loads are probably your problem. If you do shoot them much faster than target loads, the bullet skirt will separate from the bullet and remain in your barrel until the next round is fired and then you have a problem. I don't know why these bullets are plated since plating defeats the purpose of a target bullet...all HBWC bullets are swaged from very soft lead. BTW, if you are attempting to fire these bullets in a 38 S&W chamber, don't do it. 38 S&W barrels and chambers are much bigger in diameter than 38 specials.

 

[243winxb]

The difference in the gap between the barrel and cylinder can have an effect on velocity. When the cylinder is in full set back as if fired, measure the gap with a feeler gauge. Minimum gap is around .004" , maximum is about .009" The bigger the measurement, the more velocity/pressure will be lower/lost.

 

[heviarti]

Well.. I guess my seating depth is too shallow. Wish the manual or packaging had mentioned something about those seating so deep.

I should be able to use any 9 or 357 projectile in the Colt. It has a .38 special barrel on a .38 S&W pistol.

The safety hammerless on the other hand is as intended. shouldn't the hollow base act like like the heeled bullet it is intended for? I've never seen a .361 bullet of any kind in the 140ish category and no heeled bullets anywhere.
in fact the factory stuff I got all measured the same as standard .38 when I pulled it apart (didn't trust it to be light enough for the break top)

after a year of loading .38 smith I finally have a set of dies for it. I had been decapping with a .45 die and flaring seating and crimping with 9mm dies with good results.
of course the hornady seating die is incomprehensible, so it looks like I'm stuck with the 9 die until I can find a normal set of .38 S&W dies.

Haven't yet tried the bullets in .38 special. I've been loading a .358 lead bullet at 146 gn over 1.5 grains of bullseye in .38 S&W. it works well, but I only have 20 of them left.

 

[243winxb]

38 S&W Pulled Bullet .360" Diameter

I've been loading a .358 lead bullet at 146 gn over 1.5 grains of bullseye in .38 S&W. it works well,

You shoud stay with what works. The plated HBWC might just be to hard or the wrong style for the 38 S&W. A plan soft lead swaged bullet might be different. The bullet i pulled from a case marked "REM-UMC 38 S&W" measures .360" , has a concave base, is lead alloy, with lube groove. The base is nothing like a HBWC. The old powder as eaten away at the lead alloy.

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[heviarti]

hmm. the remington I have is 148, no lube groove, flat base... er.. had anyway, and it measured .358-9. when I get home I'll seat a few deeper, or reverse them.