.38 S&W Safety Hammerless

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AZAndy

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Picked this up a couple of days ago. It's a 3rd Model, probably 1895. Just got finished checking and lubricating the internals, which were clean though dry. The finish ain't much, but everything is good mechanically and the grip safety still works. In fact, I wish my other S&W revolvers locked up this tight. I'm making some .38 BP cartridges later today, though I guess I'll have to wait for the snow to quit before I can shoot it-- the local indoor range frowns on black powder.

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I was impressed by the design of the internals, which I foolishly forgot to take a picture of (sorry!). It even has a modern-style firing pin mounted in the frame, which surprised me-- I expected to see a pin on the hammer. I checked the firing pin with the ol' pencil-in-the-barrel trick, and the pencil bounced off the ceiling, so I think it's good to go.
 
Very nice.

I haven't seen any in person with that latch style. I have it's younger brother in nickle.

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I assume you already have the cup ended punches to remove the pins? If not, I would recommend getting some. Since you will be firing it, you will probably want to give it a thorough cleaning, and for me at least that would mean taking everything apart.
 
Very nice.

I haven't seen any in person with that latch style. I have it's younger brother in nickle.

I assume you already have the cup ended punches to remove the pins? If not, I would recommend getting some. Since you will be firing it, you will probably want to give it a thorough cleaning, and for me at least that would mean taking everything apart.

I don't have the punches, but the frame seems to be well sealed, so I think it'll be okay. I like your 4th Model! Does it get out much? The shop I got this from has a nickel 5th Model, but they want too much for it.
 
There is no need to shoot black powder in this gun. Currently loaded factory ammo (smokeless powder) generates less pressure than the old black powder loads. Assuming your gun is in good mechanical condition (which you so stated), it is perfectly safe to shoot modern .38 S&W ammo. And it sure is a lot easier to clean up after the fact. Smokeless powder .38 S&W ammunition was being produced in the 1890s. It was safe to use then, and it is safe to use now. If you are just wanting to shoot BP, that's different.
 
I don't have the punches, but the frame seems to be well sealed, so I think it'll be okay. I like your 4th Model! Does it get out much? The shop I got this from has a nickel 5th Model, but they want too much for it.

Thanks! I was carrying it 3-5 days a week for about a year before I got an extra Iver Johnson that I would rather put the wear on. I shoot all my guns though, and that Safety Hammerless is dead on accurate with commercial 146gr LRN. I still carry it on occasion when the weather isn't going to make me sweat all over it.

Eta: Don't overpay for a top break. They are getting more popular so the deals are hard to find but they are still out there for sure. I got that New Departure and a very nice I.J. Safety Hammerless in nickle for $300 together. I got an older S&W New Departure .32 for only $100 delivered off of gunbroker much more recently and I snagged the I.J .32 safety hammer pictured above for $75.
 
There is no need to shoot black powder in this gun. Currently loaded factory ammo (smokeless powder) generates less pressure than the old black powder loads. Assuming your gun is in good mechanical condition (which you so stated), it is perfectly safe to shoot modern .38 S&W ammo. And it sure is a lot easier to clean up after the fact. Smokeless powder .38 S&W ammunition was being produced in the 1890s. It was safe to use then, and it is safe to use now. If you are just wanting to shoot BP, that's different.
This model first appeared in 1890, so it wasn't designed with smokeless in mind. If I had some really slow powder around, I might experiment, but I don't.
 
Thanks! I was carrying it 3-5 days a week for about a year before I got an extra Iver Johnson that I would rather put the wear on. I shoot all my guns though, and that Safety Hammerless is dead on accurate with commercial 146gr LRN. I still carry it on occasion when the weather isn't going to make me sweat all over it.

Eta: Don't overpay for a top break. They are getting more popular so the deals are hard to find but they are still out there for sure. I got that New Departure and a very nice I.J. Safety Hammerless in nickle for $300 together. I got an older S&W New Departure .32 for only $100 delivered off of gunbroker much more recently and I snagged the I.J .32 safety hammer pictured above for $75.

As I was checking to see if I had holsters to fit this 3rd Model (my J-frame ones are perfect for it), I had a brief fantasy about carrying it. Here in AZ, if you get pulled over on the road, the police will disarm you and keep the handgun in their car while they do their thing. Then they give it back unloaded, with the cartridges loose. I would love to see an average young officer try to figure out how to unload this thing. Even the very revolver-savvy guy at the gun store couldn't get it open. The latch you're pushing down on to unlock it is attached to the top of the frame, so your thumb is holding the frame closed while you're trying to open it. You have to push down and simultaneously slide your thumb back just so, while pushing down on the barrel with the other hand. Took me twenty tries to get the knack. :)
 
My great grandfather carried one daily to his Mom N Pop store. After he passed away, my little 80 lb Sicilian Great grandmother kept it by her bed. Her neighborhood was going downhill, but she wouldnt move out. So, in her 80’s, she opened her bedroom window about an inch, nailed it there, so it couldnt be opened anymore. From her window, she could cover the front porch. She didnt want to break her window if she felt she needed to shoot someone off her porch! In her thick Italian accent she said “ anobody gonna coma to my house anda roppa (rape) me”! Gotta admit, I miss her allot!
 
I checked the firing pin with the ol' pencil-in-the-barrel trick, and the pencil bounced off the ceiling, so I think it's good to go.
.
I’m guessing that primers must have been harder to ignite back in the day because a lot of the older guns really whack them with authority. I’ve got a couple of the Double Action S&Ws and they also hit hard.
 
As I was checking to see if I had holsters to fit this 3rd Model (my J-frame ones are perfect for it), I had a brief fantasy about carrying it. Here in AZ, if you get pulled over on the road, the police will disarm you and keep the handgun in their car while they do their thing. Then they give it back unloaded, with the cartridges loose. I would love to see an average young officer try to figure out how to unload this thing. Even the very revolver-savvy guy at the gun store couldn't get it open. The latch you're pushing down on to unlock it is attached to the top of the frame, so your thumb is holding the frame closed while you're trying to open it. You have to push down and simultaneously slide your thumb back just so, while pushing down on the barrel with the other hand. Took me twenty tries to get the knack. :)

Kind of a funny story along those lines. I was carrying my older Iver Johnson Safety Hammerless in. 38s&w and riding my bicycle one night near downtown Orlando, when I was pulled over. I didn't have a rear light (it fell off and I had not replaced it yet), and they like to write tickets to bums for that kind of thing for some reason.

Anyway, the officer approached and after informing me why I was stopped, noticed that I had a pocket knife clipped inside my pocket. He asked if he could hold on to it while we were talking, and I agreed. As he was removing it from my pocket, I also politely informed him that I was also carrying a revolver in my front waistband. He was behind me at that moment and he definitely clamped down on me for a few seconds while he got his hands on it, but I made every effort to show I wasn't putting up any resistance and he calmed down some.

Of course the first thing he wanted to do was unload it, and the look of confusion on his face as he turned that little owl over a few times trying to determine what he was looking at actually made me crack up. I gave him a clue on its operation, and he got it unloaded. He also confirmed I had a concealed carry license, of course. About that time, another cop who must have been his superior showed up and chatted with me about I can't remember what for a few minutes while the first guy tried to find a serial number to check against their stolen database (not legal, I would argue, but oh well. They do it. ).

Eventually the first guy comes back and tells me to get a light if I'm going to be riding at night. He gives me the knife back, and he starts to tell me about how he's going to leave the gun and the ammo on top of a nearby manhole cover and I can grab it when they leave. The second cop stopped him short and said "Give the man his gun back, he's fine."

Anyway the officer returned my gun and ammo, and after they got in their car I loaded up and all parties were on their respective ways.

Almost as rewarding of an experience as the one time I laid on my horn behind a cop who wasnt going at a green light. He took off like he was worried I was gonna pull him over!

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Howdy

The 38 Safety Hammerless revolvers went through 4 different designs of the barrel latch. The first type was called the Z Bar, which was pushed sideways to open it. Sorry, I don't have a photo of a Z Bar equipped Safety Hammerless.

With the 2nd Model S&W came up with a pretty elegant design for the latch. A knurled button that you pressed down to break open the gun. The revolver on the left in the photo below is a 2nd Model. With the 3rd Model they changed the latch again, but you still pushed down the knurled latch to break open the gun. The revolver on the right is a 3rd Model.

38%20Safety%20Hammerless%202nd%20and%203rd%20Models%2001_zpsr8mt0fbb.jpg

38%20Safety%20Hammerless%202nd%20and%203rd%20Models%2002_zpsourpeoo5.jpg




The difference of the two designs becomes obvious in this photo.With the 2nd Model, the knurled button stays attached to the frame. With the 3rd Model, the knurled latch is attached to the barrel extension. Yes, it can be confusing opening it. I had to refamiliarize myself with it just now, and wound up breaking a thumbnail in the process. With the 3rd Model you have to push the latch down far enough to free the barrel, but you have to push it light enough so that you can rotate the barrel up. It takes a little getting used to. Why did they change the design from one that is easy to use to one that is not so easy? My guess is cost to manufacture. There are less parts in the 3rd Model latch than in the 2nd Model latch, and flinty old Daniel Wesson was always looking for ways to drive the cost out of manufacturing. The 2nd Model was only produced from 1887 until 1890. The 3rd Model was produced from 1890 until 1898.

38%20Safety%20Hammerless%202nd%20and%203rd%20Models%2003_zpsf45xcalm.jpg




By the time the 4th Model came out in 1898, S&W went back to the same 'T Bar' style latch that they had been using all along in the larger #3 Top Breaks.

38%20Safety%20Hammerless%204th%20Model%2001_zpsaox4zfxh.jpg

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Here is a photo of basically the same style latch on a Russian Model from 1875.

Russian%20Ejecting%20Spent%20Brass%2001_zpsqjnv7k0y.jpg




Why did they mess with those other designs? No idea. But an interesting research project.



Here is a photo of the innards of my 38 Safety Hammerless 3rd Model. If the gun is working correctly, I would not bother taking it apart further than this to clean it and lube it. If you are going to shoot it with Black Powder (and I will explain in a minute why you should only shoot it with Black Powder) all I would do is flush it out real well with a strong solvent. I used to use lacquer thinner, but these days I prefer to use regular drugstore rubbing alcohol. Do it in a well ventilated area, the fumes can overcome you. Just flush it real good with alcohol, working the action.

38SafetyHammerless3rdModellockwork_zps96c12906.jpg




The cylinder is easy to remove on these. Open the gun and press down on the spring in the hollowed out area on top of the top strap. Lift the cylinder slightly and rotate it counterclockwise. There is a reverse thread on the arbor and the cylinder will rise up off the arbor. Reverse the process to reinstall the cylinder.

38SafetyHammerless3rdModel03_zps5916b27a.jpg



Before you close it up again, lube the insides. If you are only going to shoot it with Black Powder (as I am recommending) use Ballistol to coat everything real good. I don't subscribe to the school of thought of lightly lubing these old guns, I coat all the parts real well with Ballistol. Then button it up again.

OK, here is why I never shoot any of my antiques with Smokelss ammo. I have heard all the arguments about modern ammo is loaded down to simulate the pressure of BP ammo. What nobody tells you is almost all Smokeless Powders have a much quicker pressure spike than Black Powder. The old steel of these guns may not put up with that rapid pressure spike. Think about it this way. If you are trying to pull a car with a rope, and you have the rope tied to the bumpers of the cars, what happens if you start the towing car up with a jerk? The rope breaks. But if you ease the gas and start pulling gently, the rope will not break and you can get the other car rolling. It is the same thing with the old steel in these guns. The fact is, Colt did not factory warranty the SIngle Acton Army for Smokeless Powder until 1900, when they felt they had developed a good enough heat treating process for the steel of the cylinder to withstand the shock of the Smokeless pressure spike. It is dicey trying to pin down S&W as to when their guns were factory guaranteed for Smokeless, but I doubt if they had access to steel that was any better than Colt did just a few miles down the river. Anyway, I have a reprint of a 1900 S&W catalog and it specifically states they will not guarantee their revolvers when fired with Smokeless Powder. By the 1905/1906 they had softened their stance on it a bit.

Anyway, if you want to shoot your Safety Hammerless with Black Powder you are going to have a hard time finding 38 S&W bullets that carry a BP compatible lube. I use BP compatible lube on the bullets of all my BP cartridges, but I doubt if you will find any for 38 S&W. My solution was to use regular hard cast modern bullets with Smokelss lube, but rather than loading the cartridges with real Black Powder I used American Pioneer Powder (APP). APP can be used with modern hard cast bullet lubes. Don't try it with real Black Powder or Pyrodex.
 
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Here is a photo of the innards of my 38 Safety Hammerless 3rd Model. If the gun is working correctly, I would not bother taking it apart further than this to clean it and lube it. If you are going to shoot it with Black Powder (and I will explain in a minute why you should only shoot it with Black Powder) all I would do is flush it out real well with a strong solvent. I used to use lacquer thinner, but these days I prefer to use regular drugstore rubbing alcohol. Do it in a well ventilated area, the fumes can overcome you. Just flush it real good with alcohol, working the action.

The cylinder is easy to remove on these. Open the gun and press down on the spring in the hollowed out area on top of the top strap. Lift the cylinder slightly and rotate it counterclockwise. There is a reverse thread on the arbor and the cylinder will rise up off the arbor. Reverse the process to reinstall the cylinder.

Before you close it up again, lube the insides. If you are only going to shoot it with Black Powder (as I am recommending) use Ballistol to coat everything real good. I don't subscribe to the school of thought of lightly lubing these old guns, I coat all the parts real well with Ballistol. Then button it up again.

OK, here is why I never shoot any of my antiques with Smokelss ammo. I have heard all the arguments about modern ammo is loaded down to simulate the pressure of BP ammo. What nobody tells you is almost all Smokeless Powders have a much quicker pressure spike than Black Powder. The old steel of these guns may not put up with that rapid pressure spike. Think about it this way. If you are trying to pull a car with a rope, and you have the rope tied to the bumpers of the cars, what happens if you start the towing car up with a jerk? The rope breaks. But if you ease the gas and start pulling gently, the rope will not break and you can get the other car rolling. It is the same thing with the old steel in these guns. The fact is, Colt did not factory warranty the SIngle Acton Army for Smokeless Powder until 1900, when they felt they had developed a good enough heat treating process for the steel of the cylinder to withstand the shock of the Smokeless pressure spike. It is dicey trying to pin down S&W as to when their guns were factory guaranteed for Smokeless, but I doubt if they had access to steel that was any better than Colt did just a few miles down the river. Anyway, I have a reprint of a 1900 S&W catalog and it specifically states they will not guarantee their revolvers when fired with Smokeless Powder. By the 1905/1906 they had softened their stance on it a bit.

Anyway, if you want to shoot your Safety Hammerless with Black Powder you are going to have a hard time finding 38 S&W bullets that carry a BP compatible lube. I use BP compatible lube on the bullets of all my BP cartridges, but I doubt if you will find any for 38 S&W. My solution was to use regular hard cast modern bullets with Smokelss lube, but rather than loading the cartridges with real Black Powder I used American Pioneer Powder (APP). APP can be used with modern hard cast bullet lubes. Don't try it with real Black Powder or Pyrodex.

When I did some internet-based research into coming up with a load, I happened across a post of yours on a SASS-related site that led me to the black powder conclusion, so you'd already helped me before you knew it! :) I was planning on some Crisco on the bullets, as that's what I used to use when I had a Navy .36 as a teenager. I made 30 rounds yesterday with Starline brass, MB 146 grain, and Pyrodex, as I can't find any black powder around here. I will split them between this S&W and a slightly older nickel H&R I've never fired. I think the two will just go in a display box on the wall after that.

Thanks for the tip on the cylinder removal; I hadn't figured that out yet. The H&R I mentioned has the same spring on the top strap, but no turning of the cylinder required, so I was puzzled by the S&W. I just checked to make sure I understood it, and was successful in getting the cylinder out, so thanks for the clear instructions.

The rubbing alcohol is a great idea, I hadn't thought of that. I have a bunch around already because I use it to clean the stems on my briar pipes. The H&R doesn't have a side plate, so I might just dunk the whole thing and then spray it out with brake cleaner and then CLP spray.

Thanks for yet another informative and well-illustrated post, Mr. J. You've helped me many times, and I'm grateful for your presence and efforts here. I gotta figure out a way to send you a pizza or something. :)
 
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I’m guessing that primers must have been harder to ignite back in the day because a lot of the older guns really whack them with authority. I’ve got a couple of the Double Action S&Ws and they also hit hard.

That may well be-- I have an H&R from the same era that's the same way.
 
Kind of a funny story along those lines. I was carrying my older Iver Johnson Safety Hammerless in. 38s&w and riding my bicycle one night near downtown Orlando, when I was pulled over. I didn't have a rear light (it fell off and I had not replaced it yet), and they like to write tickets to bums for that kind of thing for some reason.

Anyway, the officer approached and after informing me why I was stopped, noticed that I had a pocket knife clipped inside my pocket. He asked if he could hold on to it while we were talking, and I agreed. As he was removing it from my pocket, I also politely informed him that I was also carrying a revolver in my front waistband. He was behind me at that moment and he definitely clamped down on me for a few seconds while he got his hands on it, but I made every effort to show I wasn't putting up any resistance and he calmed down some.

Of course the first thing he wanted to do was unload it, and the look of confusion on his face as he turned that little owl over a few times trying to determine what he was looking at actually made me crack up. I gave him a clue on its operation, and he got it unloaded. He also confirmed I had a concealed carry license, of course. About that time, another cop who must have been his superior showed up and chatted with me about I can't remember what for a few minutes while the first guy tried to find a serial number to check against their stolen database (not legal, I would argue, but oh well. They do it. ).

Eventually the first guy comes back and tells me to get a light if I'm going to be riding at night. He gives me the knife back, and he starts to tell me about how he's going to leave the gun and the ammo on top of a nearby manhole cover and I can grab it when they leave. The second cop stopped him short and said "Give the man his gun back, he's fine."

:D Yep, that's the sort of scenario that ran through my mind.
 
Mine, 1898 38 S&W New Departure Safety Hammerless. I also included some vintage advertisements I have saved images of over the years. I love these old guns...too bad this one eats cylinder stops as much as it eats ammo. I need to make a new piece so I can put a few more rounds through the old gal.

Very nice indeed! Thanks for the photos. Reading through the sales catalogue there made me wonder about something-- why is it that they're always called "stocks" or "grips," but if they're pearl, they're "handles?"
 
Thanks! I was carrying it 3-5 days a week for about a year before I got an extra Iver Johnson that I would rather put the wear on. I shoot all my guns though, and that Safety Hammerless is dead on accurate with commercial 146gr LRN. I still carry it on occasion when the weather isn't going to make me sweat all over it.

Eta: Don't overpay for a top break. They are getting more popular so the deals are hard to find but they are still out there for sure. I got that New Departure and a very nice I.J. Safety Hammerless in nickle for $300 together. I got an older S&W New Departure .32 for only $100 delivered off of gunbroker much more recently and I snagged the I.J .32 safety hammer pictured above for $75.
I agree, these top breaks, at least the Iver's and H&R's, weren't built to last and there's a reason S&W stopped making top breaks. I think as time goes on the .32 models will prove more popular given that ammunition is cheaper and more available than .38 S&W, not to mention the guns will last longer mechanically. So, if people are looking for an investment opportunity, I would get some of the .32's while they're cheap, keep them 10 years and you'll probably be able to sell them for $100 more than what you paid for them.

I'm glad I bought mine 2 years ago.
 
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