.38 S&W with 200g bullet--penetration tests

[LouisianaMan]

Update, 15 FEB 10, for heavy bullet fans.

TARGET: 6 water-filled jugs, backed by 2x12.

RANGE: approx 10 feet

GUNS: S&W Mod. 32-1 (2") and S&W 33-1 (4"). Chronography done from 4" bbl. approx 3" from muzzle.

LOAD:
a. BULLET: Lee GB mold 358430, LRN, 197-98g with 50-50 WW-Pb + 4 oz. tin per 20 lbs. alloy. Estimated BHN = 7-9. COL: 1.270"

b. POWDER: Win 231. Charge: 2.7g. My charge IS IN EXCESS OF RECOMMENDED LOAD FROM LYMAN 49th. USE A RELOADING MANUAL, CHRONO, etc. TO WORK UP YOUR OWN LOAD. In previous tests, I have noted that my lot of Win231 appears to be slower than average, which lot variation has been noted by Ed Harris as characteristic of this powder. Therefore, I start with recommended data and then work it up over the chronograph to vels similar to published velocities. Ed considers 700fps max for a 200g bullet in this gun.

CHRONO RESULTS (10-shot string): LO 624.4, HI 651.9, AVG 639.0, ES 27.54, SD 8.54.

PENETRATION OUTCOMES:

1. 4" bbl. chrono'ed for this shot at 662.7fps on this shot. Bullet tracked straight thru 2 jugs, then began curving down and left. Broke extreme bottom of 5th jug and did not impact 6th jug. Bullet not recovered.

2. 2" bbl. chrono'ed for this shot at 624.2fps. Bullet tracked straight thru 2 jugs, began curving down & left. Came out extreme bottom left of jug #4 and failed to hit #5. Bullet not recovered.

I'll update tonight with photos of loaded 161g and 198g cartridges, as well as target patterning of chrono'ed strings. Also ME and free recoil calculations. Stay tuned! Times are tough for milk jugs. . .

 

[eldon519]

Just for my personal clarification, is this .38 S&W caliber or .38 Special in a S&W revolver?

 

[Occam's Razor]

The S&W Models 32 an 33 are .38 S&W caliber.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

Umm hate to ask the dumb question. Why didn't you just do this with .38 special. There are lots of surplus .38 specials out there like the S&W 10 & 15 that most folks don't feel comfortable shooting +P loads out of. Some research done with 200 grain rounds following the old (heavy and slow v. fast and light) for self defense would have been a heck of a thing. Maybe I'm a bit daft and there aren't molds for such. Any way around though I'm interested in seeing some pics and what happens. Also on the jugs what's the penetration distance total. Water is supposed to be 2x actual soft flesh penetration as I understand it.

Out of a S&W 10 or 15, it'd be interesting to see a 200 grain load that isn't +P.

 

[Kernel]

^^^^
Perhaps because the world abounds with .38 Spl data but precious little on the .38 S&W.

 

[LouisianaMan]

Magnum,
The crucial issue in my case is that my ladies don't have the hand size to handle a K-frame properly, and there's no 4" J-frame that's matched with a 2" J frame of same caliber. So, .38SPL was out. . .plus I reload and cast my own bullets, so with 1000 Starline cases, they'll never lack for ammo. I also specifically wanted two guns for each of them--one 2" for car or purse, the 4" to remain in a standard place of their choosing in the house. If I gave them only one, it would wind up in the car if needed in the house, or in the purse which was not left where they thought it was in the home. . .Best of all, EVERYTHING is standardized folr them: cylinder latch, rotation direction, speedloaders, ammo, holsters, #shots. . .you get it.

Read on for what I've done with 200g LSWC-K in .38 SPL.

ME & free recoil calculations in 20 oz. gun for .38S&W:
Factory: 146g @ 685: ME 152 fpe. Recoil: 3 fpe, 12 fps.
Handload: 161g @ 709 (see yesterday's post): 180 fpe. Recoil: 4 fpe, 13 fps.
Handload: 198g @ 639fps (see yesterday's post): 180 fpe. Recoil: 4 fpe, 15 fps.

BTW, I've also done these tests already with .38SPL with LSWC-K, and posted in several places. Here's an excerpt:
" #1: Colt Detective Special .38 SPL, 2" bbl, with 200g Mt. Baldy LSWC-K, meplat .280 (I think) seated deep and crimped over front shoulder, with 3.4g Win231. (This load and gun previously chrono'ed at 718 fps, thereby trying to ensure similarity to original factory ballistics of 770 fps from 6" bbl. It is modified from "Mikey's load" of 3.8g of the same powder.)
RESULTS: penetrated all 6 jugs and struck nose-first into a 2" x 12" placed behind the last jug, knocking a hole in the board up to the bullet shoulder, then falling out onto the ground while knocking down the 15" long board. Bullet path was arrow-straight, exiting through the tape on the back side of the sixth jug at same relative location as it struck the first jug. All caps remained intact. First two jugs failed at the circular "dimple" molded in the side; all others bulged the dimple outward without causing it to fail. After impact, the row of taped-together jugs toppled over and fell off the two 2"x4" boards I'd placed them upon."

NOTE: all milk jugs are 6" wide, so my .38 S&W snubbie LRN penetrated 24" and the 4" with LRN penetrated 30". The .38 SPL 2" with LSWC-K penetrated 36" with some power to spare. So did my LSWC .38 S&W 161g bullet from both 2" and 4" guns (see yesterday's post). Other tests with 200g LRN in .38 SPL demonstrated similar deviation in penetration path as did the .38 S&W LRN. One theory about the old Super Police 200g LRN was that this tumbling increased effectiveness vs. straight LRN penetration, which tends to poke a self-sealing hole to some degree.

I'll soon try 200g LFPs (a .35 Remington bullet) and in August will receive Landric's group buy LSWC. I'll post those too, after testing. Not sure about the LFP, but the LSWC will doubtless penetrate straight.

See photos below, which include my personal primary (625-7, 45LC), both secondaries (M-67 and M-15, 38SPL), Colt D.S. .38 SPL, as well as one of four sets of M-32-1 and M-33/-1 in .38S&W. (My set for fun, three sets for my girls. Now, everytime they shoot one, it's reinforcement training for their own guns.)
Ammo shown: .45LC factory GDHP, 255g LFP handload. .38SPL 158g LHP+P "FBI Load," handloaded 200g LRN, handloaded 200g LSWC-K, , .38 S&W 200g LRN and .38 S&W 161g LSWC.

 

[Starter52]

A well-presented post, LouisianaMan. Interesting data.

I've handloaded and shot the .38 S&W many times over the years, but I've never tried the old 200 gr. loads. I am a bit surprised at the penetration of such a low-velocity round. I guess the Brits weren't too far off with their old military and (colonial) police load.

 

[Gordon]

This is the reason the British went with the 200 grain load : it yaws in the body alot! I have shot similar loads in my .38 S&W Terrier snub and it seems on the verge of instability in the air as the bullet holes look a little oblong at 25 yards. My Webley tho shoots them straight and to point of aim. The Load with the powder and bullet mold you quoted is actually what I worked up to 15 years ago. The Webley gets very close to 700 FPS however with it. Yes I'd stay away from old S&W an CERTAINLY the off brand .38 S&W guns with it! The Victory models in .38S&W eat it as do the larger medium frame Colts.

 

[wcwhitey]

Good information, thanks for the post. There a quite a few Terriers and Detective Specials out there for a decent price because of the caliber. Gives a handloader good alternatives. Also puts an old Webley back into action. Bill

 

[LouisianaMan]

Thanks for your interest, and my compliments in return on your interesting observations. I suspect your Webley got higher vel from this load because my lot of Win231 seems slow, based on data points with several guns & calibers. Ed Harris (American Rifleman tech of yore) notes that this powder tends to vary somewhat from lot to lot. When I finish this pound soon, I'll start on three 1-pound canisters from a different lot, and will work back up to my loads in case they have different burning characteristics.

I haven't fired at 25 yds yet, as I'm just getting started with this caliber & these guns. Inside my home, there's actually one spot where a 20 yd shot is possible, so I'll be interested to see how my load holds up at that range.

I could well envision that we could wind up using 200g LFPs or LSWCs in the snubbies, to maximize penetration. Maybe even the LRN, since close-range snubbie shots are perhaps more likely to be frontal that across-the-room shots at BGs dodging for cover. If frontal at close range, a possibly tumbling bullet could well be a better solution than a straight-thru penetration. Across a house--at least mine--due to possible long range, intervening leather furniture, etc., I like the LSWC which would go straight(-er) thru an upraised arm, shoulder, traverse torso, and out the other shoulder of a big man in heavy clothing. . .Gruesome speculation, but it beats losing the fight!

 

[dbarale]

Quick question, what's the actual bullet size and did you slug your barrels?

 

[batjka]

Louisiana man,

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting.

Since you have bullets and reload, do you mind doing a penetration test with .38 S&W loaded with BP? There are a lot of old revolvers chambered in .38 S&W and they might not be safe firing a smokeless load, especially the top-breaks. BP should be safe in these, but what kinds of ballistics would you get?

I am very curious in this, and Pyrodex P should be easy to obtain. Would you mind testing the penetration for the common good?

 

[LouisianaMan]

dbarale,
Sorry to be so long getting you an answer. . .I'm shooting as-cast, .360. I slugged two of my eight barrels, and both were .359. As best I could tell, my chambers were miking about .362. I got a .361 sizer from Buckshot on Cast Boolits, and it sizes a larger diameter 150g SWC down to .3610-3615 or so (alloy "bounces back" after sizing, depending on its composition, so I think Buckshot's dimensions are probably perfect). After sizing, these bullets can be pushed thru the chambers with a bit of pressure on a pencil, so I think the chambers are .362.

Sorry, batjka, but I don't use BP or Pyrodex in anything but a muzzle-loading rifle for deer season. I think you can get a general fix on BP penetration by ascertaining the approximate velocity--even from books stating vels of the original loads--and looking at bullet type. If it's a 146g LRN, expect it to veer and/or tumble, plus penetrate far less than a 200g bullet. (Far less momentum.) Assuming that the current factory smokeless loads closely resemble BP loads, i.e. 146g @ 685fps, I bet you'd get about 3 jugs' worth of penetration.

 

[W.E.G.]

Some of us just love our little Terriers.

 

[LouisianaMan]

WEG,
Nice gun, nice photo, and nice shooting! Now, where do you get 160g factory ammo? I wasn't aware of any available ammo other than the 145-146g LRN from Win, Rem, MagTech, S&B (I think), and some CAS stuff from Ten-X. Come to think of it, though, I recently stumbled across .38/200 after somebody put this link on a forum: http://www.ows-ammo.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21/products_id/1113

I've never shot this stuff, and Old Western Scrounger doesn't state vel, bullet diam., etc. It might be an excellent solution for someone wanting a factory-loaded round as a SD/HD load, rather than using a handload. I think I'll send them an email. . . .

Edit: just went back to OWS site & see they have 160g lead ammo. I guess that's what you're shooting? Any idea what velocity it's loaded to?

 

[LouisianaMan]

200g flat-nose bullets in .38 S&W--penetration testing 7 MAR 10

I used a die made by "BUCKSHOT" on Cast Boolits to flatten the noses of my 192g wheelweight 358430s, giving them a meplat approx. .275 in diameter, while reducing the LRN profile to something resembling a LWC without the sharp shoulder. Since the flattening process caused a bit of swelling, I ran them thru a 361 sizer to ensure a fit in my guns. I also reduced the charge from 2.7g Win231 to 2.6g, since diameter might have increased from as-cast .360 to .361. COL was reduced from 1.270 to 1.205" due to the bumping process; bullet seating depth was not altered from my earlier tests.

CHRONO RESULTS (10 shots, 4" bb. Mod. 33-1): LO 608.8 HI 643.0 AVG 629.8 ES 34.28 SD 9.43

PENETRATION RESULTS @ est. 10' vs. water-filled milk jugs:
1. 4" bbl, Mod. 33-1. Shot chrono'ed at 604.5fps. Bullet penetrated all 6 jugs in essentially straight line, barely exiting 6th jug, denting a stop board about 1/4" deep, then falling back into the jug (now very clean). I had placed cardboard between each jug, to see whether evidence of bullet tumbling existed. Neither the holes in the cardboard nor the holes in the jugs evidenced tumbling. Since the velocity was actually lower than the chronographed LRN 198g in my earlier testing, the LFP profile seems to account for increased penetration & straighter flight path vs. the LRN version of this bullet.

2. 2" bbl, S&W Mod. 32-1. This shot screamed over the chrono at 575.0 fps, penetrating in a straight line into the 6th jug, but failing to exit. This bullet was also recovered in a very clean condition No evidence of tumbling.

3. Both recovered bullets miked at .360 and evidenced no weight loss or deformation.

ACCURACY RESULTS: 50' off sandbags, 2 1/2" group 10 rds, POI +5", L 1 1/2".

ADDITIONAL ANALYSIS:
1. Penetration in LFP profile is markedly deeper & straighter than LRN profile of same bullet, despite lower velocity of the shot. The bullet hole is clearly larger and rounder in both paper target and mik jug than the LRN; larger wound channel and greater tissue damage are therefore likely. If any benefit obtains when the bullet tumbles in LRN form, however, this would be lost in LFP form.

2. 192g LFP penetration is slightly less than 161g LSWC and 215g LFP (35-200). The meplat and bullet hole sizes of the 192g LFP and 161g LSWC are very similar; both are larger than the LRN, which is in turn larger than the 215g LFP.

Next tests are with a Lyman Ideal 360271 mold, nominally 150g, which casts 50-50 in WW-Pb + tin at .364+ and 157g lubed.

 

[LouisianaMan]

50-yd. 200g test against pine tree, 157g against milk jugs

1. 200g results @ long range

Attached photos of 50-yard target fired off of sandbags, prone, with the 358430 bullet in .38 S&W (vel. c. 630) from S&W Mod. 33. Bullet weight was 197-98g, cast .360 from 50-50 WW-Pb + tin. See also "better" target with .38 SPL @ 725fps, 192-93g, cast from straight WW, sized .358, fired from S&W Mod. 67.

I've plinked with autos at 75 yds before, but this is the first time I've fired a 50-yd. target with revolvers. Although my marksmanship is nothing to brag about, it would not have been fun to stand in front of the targets, especially since there was no keyholing at all. I presume the difference in accuracy was due primarily to better fit, sights, weight of M-67, esp. since Mod 33's sights are nickel--a bit of a strain in sunlight.

I also fired .38 SPL into a live pine tree at 56 yards and my probe touched the base of the slug 1" deep, so the nose of the bullet penetrated about 1.8" into the wood, plus 1/4 to 1/2" of bark.

When I fired the .38 S&W slug into a different live pine tree at 58 yards, my probe found the base 5/8" deep, so the nose penetrated about 1.5" into wood, plus 1/4 to 1/2" of bark.

So, the .38/200 supposedly bounced off of an overcoat???? I can't speak personally for the British 178g FMJ service round, but this 358430 is very similar to the original Brit lead bullet 200g load, and anyone expecting his overcoat to stop this bullet had better be wearing blue tights with a big "S" on his chest!

2. Water-filled milk jug penetration test with 150g LSWC

BULLET: Lyman Ideal 360231 LSWC, nominally 150g, but 157g as-cast with 50-50+tin, sized .361

LOAD: 2.5g Win231. COL = 1.086" Crimped in crimp groove.

REVOLVER: S&W Mod. 33, 4" bbl.

CHRONO: LO 694.6, HI 713.7, AVG 703.9, ES 19.08, SD 6.85

POI @ 60' approx. +2"

PENETRATION @ 10 FT." (with both 4" and 2" guns)
a. Mod 33, 4" bbl: Shot chrono'ed at 690.3 fps, drove straight line thru all 6 jugs, halfway-exited #6 and buried up to shoulder in 2x12 stop board. Note deformed bullet nose in photo.

b. Mod 32-1, 2" bbl" Shot chrono'ed at 581.2 fps. drove straight line thru 5 jugs, cracked hole barely in front of #6, and stuck horizontally between #5 and #6. Note undeformed bullet nose in photo.

PHOTOS:
#017: Mod 67 .38 SPL with 50-yd. target
#018: Mod 33 .38 S&W with 50-yd. target
#004: Mods. 33-1 and 32-1 used for water penetration test of 150g LSWC, with recovered bullets at respective muzzles. Other cartridges shown, with nominal bullet wts. (L-R): Lyman 360231 LSWC 150g; Lee LSWC-TL 158g; Lee GB of Lyman 358430 LRN 195g; flat-pointed Lee GB of Lyman 358430 LRN 195g; RCBS 35-200 LFP, 200g.

 

[W.E.G.]

Sorry for taking so long to reply to this thread.

As for the source of the ammo, there is an older couple who sells ammo at Virginia gun shows. That's who I got it from. Just comes loose in a white box, and marked with the label you see in the right-hand corner of the target I posted above. That's all I know about it.

 

[Daizee]

LouisianaMan, have you tried firing any of those loads at a hanging "overcoat"? Some heavy fabric just hanging free a foot or so in front of your milk jugs, for instance.
Loose fabric is a pretty good backstop for slow-moving projectiles with enough cross-section not to slip through the weave.

I find this sort of load optimization very interesting, though given my superficial understanding of the situation I would have chosen an in-production caliber and made the compromises elsewhere. Cool to see a different perspective.

-Daizee

 

[LouisianaMan]

Thanks, W.E.G., I checked and the Old Western Scrounger in located in WV, so maybe it's the same group. I've emailed OWS to see if they would like to share any info thru me.

Daizee,
Glad you reminded me of the possibility of an "overcoat test"! Too bad I no longer have the old thick, blue Swiss military overcoat I bought as a souvenir many years ago--it would be a great retro way to test a contemporary coat! I guess I need to think up an equivalent & give it a go--it would be a great illustration, regardless of outcome.

And yes, the easy & smartest way to do the standardization approach would be something with a .J-frame .38SPL. For anyone who doesn't reload and/or cast, options with .38 S&W would be severely limited at best. If this Old Western Scrounger ammo is available & equivalent to my handloads, though, it might give many folks an acceptable HD/SD ammo option if they happen to have a serviceable S&W or Colt revolver in this caliber. Nobody in recent years has likely heard anything positive about performance of .38 S&W for HD/SD, yet as one poster noted, his Dad was a cop in the '50s and carried a S&W Terrier with 200g bullets as an undercover gun, and it was considered a "hot carry combo."

With such a history, enhanced by the "Super Police" history & hype, plus the British Army usage, it also struck me as strange that the caliber should have become known as so utterly incapable. Upon reflection (and my "testing"), I'm convinced it's in large part a function of the underpowered factory 145-46g ammo. Like the .32 S&W Long, it can be loaded far more respectably than the commercial power level. The other problems were/are anemic performance in police service against autos, and the clumsy DAO revolver & weak military FMJ ammo the Brits wound up using. I imagine if they'd used 200g lead with SA/DA revolvers, it would have come out of Brit service with a far more respectable reputation as a service round for civilian users. The "bounce off cars & overcoats too!" anecdotes are naturally a reputation-killer I didn't decide to buy guns in this caliber until I studied reloading manuals & learned it was indeed capable of far better performance. I think that's why my posts have interested a lot of folks--they're amazed that the caliber isn't as horrible as we all thought.

 

[calaverasslim]

I ofter carry a 38 S&W Regulation Police, loaded with the 146rn load, using W-231. Iwanna say about 2.7gr but don't quote me cuz I'm in the house and my data is in the shop.

Several of my friends rag me about such an "old timey" round for carry. I would show them this data but they have little understanding of ballestics. I have just enuf to almost understand what was sed but it seems to say what I think.

This gun is a good carry gun.

 

[LouisianaMan]

Slim,
Your Regulation Police is the same thing I'm shooting in 4" bbl, either a Mod 33 or a 33-1. It's only 18 oz. in a 4" bbl, which is a nice carry combination, especially with the slim 5-shot J frame. Since you're reloading for it, you may want to invest $8 in a "bullet squisher" die from Buckshot, so you can flat-point your 146g slug. I like what that does to create a more effective wound channel and to make your bullet penetrate on a straight line. Either way, nobody wants to stand in front of one.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Thanks' Lousiana man. Interesting finds. My only .38 S&W is an old DAO Meriden top-break, and it's way down on the list of guns I'd choose for SD, but it's still fun to play with these old things.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I kick myself for a few years ago passing up a 2 inch nickle Terrier that came with the box. But since then I picked up my nickle Smith 2 inch Bodyguard for $326 OTD, I don't feel so bad!

Still that would be a dandy little piece. But no factory makes a decent load. Now if Corbon would make a DPX load....

 

[LouisianaMan]

Deaf, I hear you! But a nickel-plated Bodyguard for $326 definitely eases the sting!

As for .38 S&W ammo, I wish ANYBODY would make ANYTHING more modern and effective in it. A modest vel bullet with modern expanding technology, a 200g LFP at low vel, or a 150ish LSWC or even LFP at low 700s. Label the box accordingly, so that people don't try to use them in an old relic. Heck, we already do this with .38 SPL +P, .45LC "Ruger only" loads, and Lord knows what else. Seems like Cor-Bon and Buffalo Bore EXIST for the niche of "modern power in traditional caliber," and they haven't been sued out of existence.