The .38 S&W: penetration vs. milk jugs

[LouisianaMan]

A while back I posted some penetration tests on .38 SPL 200g and .32 S&W Long 115g bullets vs. water-filled milk jugs on a couple of forums. Since I recently re-equipped my wife & daughters with sets of 2" and 4" barreled revolvers in caliber .38 S&W (NOT .38 SPL), I thought I would share some initial results against milk jugs. I wanted to get them something more than a .32, but less than a .38 SPL, since one daughter finds that difficult to deal with. By standardizing their guns & even holsters, all ammo, speedloaders, snaps, etc. are now the same--no more fumbling over the differences between guns, actions, and ammo.

TARGET: 5 water-filled jugs, backed by 2x12.
RANGE: approx 10 feet
GUNS: S&W Mod. 32-1 (2") and S&W 33-1 (4")
LOAD:
a. BULLET: Lee LSWC-TL, .358--158g nominal size. I "beagled" the mold to produce a fatter bullet when casting, as my revolvers' bores slug at .359. Outcome of casting was .359-.361, 161g with 50-50 WW-Pb + 4 oz. tin per 20 lbs. alloy. Estimated BHN = 7-9. COL: 1.155"
b. Powder: Win 231. Charge: 3.0g. Chrono'ed velocity for 5-shot string: 708.2 fps avg, with SD slightly over 12 (i.e. very consistent). NOTE: this powder charge is derived from Lyman 49th for 160g bullet, but my charge IS IN EXCESS OF RECOMMENDED LOAD. USE A RELOADING MANUAL TO WORK UP YOUR OWN LOAD. In previous tests, I have noted that my lot of Win231 appears to be slower than average, which lot variation has been noted by Ed Harris as characteristic of this powder. Therefore, I start with recommended data and then work it up over the chronograph to vels similar to published velocities. Ed considers 700fps max for a 200g bullet in this gun, so I'm very comfortable with the same velocity from a bullet about 20% lighter.

OUTCOME: both the snubbie 2" and its longer-barreled 4" twin put their bullet thru all five milk jugs in an absolutely straight line, then buried themselves into the 2x12 behind the jugs. Interestingly, the bullet from the snubbie is buried up to its base, whereas the bullet from the 4" gun is embedded "only" halfway into the board. (See photos) Perhaps a measurement of barrel-cylinder gaps on the two guns will explain the difference, or perhaps it's a result of the slight out-of-roundness in each bullet caused by the "beagling" process in casting--perhaps one obturated more fully than the other.

NOTE on photos: the groups fired were from a 2.9g load at 40' from sandbags. The group size is largely a result of my marksmanship, which is adequate for defense but no record-setter Note that the group sizes are completely adequate for close-range defense, which is our chosen purpose for these guns. The additional hole visible in the board was caused by my earlier .38SPL 200g LSWC-K test, fired thru 6 jugs (not 5).

200g bullet tests with these revolvers follow soon. Velocity goal is about 600fps.

 

[Landric]

LA Man: Have you done any testing with the 200 grain bullets in .38 S&W? I'm going to have a hard time waiting till August for our NOE GB!

For anyone else who is interested, there is a group buy on the Cast Boolits forum for a 200 grain SWC in the .359-.360 range.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=61896

 

[jmortimer]

Just read your post on another board. Goes to show you that hard cast bullets at slow/moderate velocity will penetrate as your tests show. I will be testing 148 grain wadcutters soon. I like these test results - a 148 grain wadcutter at 657 fps shooting through 36" of ballistic gelatin. I don't mind some over penetration. Thank you for posting your test results. Test results here
http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/HG_wickedwadcutters_200901/

 

[scottishclaymore]

Out of curiosity, can you post a link to your previous test results with the .38 Sp?

 

[LouisianaMan]

scottishclaymore,
Take a look at http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,175269.0.html and http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,177587.0.html

As you will see, this topic fascinates me. I guess it's the historian/traditionalist in me, and I think anyone whose handle is scottishclaymore can probably understand!

 

[336A]

LouisianaMan, you might also want to try out some of the 148gr DEWC as jmortimer talked about. IMHO this bullet has a lot going for it, yet is often overlooked in lieu of the newer uber bullets. I myself have never really thought much of this bullet until a couple of years ago. I was reading with great interest on another forum about this bullet and the success the poster was having with it.

The poster was/is using load data out of the speer #13 reloading manual and a cast 148gr DEWC. His results were eye opening to say the least. He was getting an AVG velocity of 895fps from his S&W snub, and IIRC close to 980fps from his 4" S&W model 15. The other great thing about this load and data is that it is standard pressure Not to long after the poster found this load Buffalo Bore marketed a version as well. Brass Fetcher tested the Buffalo Bore version in 10% gelitan and was getting around 23" of penetration when shot from a S&W 642

When inputing the data into the Permanent Wound Channel computer at Beartooth using the snubbie vel of 900fps, you get a wound channel volume of .806"
Thornily stopping Power rating of 33
and a Taylor KO rating of 7

I was unsure at the time just how effective this bullet profile would actually be when used in the real world. That is until I finished reading the book Guns, Bullets and Gunfights by the late Jim Cirillo. Mr. Cirillo (as told by himself in the book) did a lot of experimenting back in the day while he was on the NYCPD Stake Out Squad. He was looking for a effective bullet that would put an aggresive felon down Right Now yet not deflect on head shots.

Mr. Cirillo ended up using bullets that he made himself in his basement but guess what profile he ended up using....? Yup you guessed it the wadcutter. The reason he went with the wadcutter profile was that he found SWC and bullets with a rounded ogive to penetrate to deeply, or deflect to easily if all he had for a target was a portion of a felons head. Mr.cirillo and his partner used his modified wadcutter bullets and with great results in real life. Had they not worked he certainly would not be able to tell about it and his experiences of the Stake Out Squad. The other reason that he liked his bullets/ammo was due to fast recovery time for rapid follow up shots.

I have a good supply of DEWC bullets to load and try, but haven't had the time to load any up and head to the range. But rest assured I will. I strongly recommend Jim's book to all. It explains a lot of things and he writes about what worked and did not work for him in real life gunfights.

 

[jad0110]

Don't get me wrong, I prefer the +P lead semiwadcutter hollowpoints in my guns, but if I were recoil sensitive or carrying a 2" barrel .38 in very cold climates where people bundle up with many layers, I'd have no issues carrying 148 wadcutters as a primary load.

Though when reloading from speedstrips and especially speedloaders, wadcutters are a pain in the butt.

My sister is looking at getting her CCW, and possibly a Ruger LCR for carry. She decided that her primary load will likely be Federal Gold Match 148 grain wadcutters, with a speedloader or two of 135 grain Speer Gold Dots.

 

[LouisianaMan]

Thanks for the interesting feedback.

336, re. WC--I just got a 6-cavity mold with that very thing in mind. With my 50-50 WW-Pb + tin alloy, it drops right at .357-358, which is a bit skinny for my .38 S&W's, although perfect for my M-15 and M-67 Smiths. I intend to cast a ton at normal size for my .38SPLs, then "beagle" the mold to try to achieve about a .360, as I did with the LSWC mold in my first test yesterday. (In case you're not familiar with beagling, it's placing aluminum tape between and beneath each cavity, to increase size of bullets.)

Then I'll seat the WCs out a bit to keep pressure down, see what I can do with vel and POA/POI, and then test against the dreaded milk jugs I also have a LSWC Lyman Ideal mold that is nominally 150g, but drops about 155-56g with my current alloy, at about .364. Once I get my .361 sizer from "Buckshot" on another forum, I'll see how they do when sized for my guns.

When all is said and done, I'll have 148g WC, 150g SWC, 158g SWC, 200g LRN, 200g LFP, and 200g LSWC to choose from. Each has its +/-. The LRN destabilizes--good for a frontal shot, perhaps, not so good for quartering/side shots. WC and SWC tend to penetrate straight thru, with heavier bullets generally going deeper--excellent for side shots. I tend to imagine that snubbie shots may be more likely to be frontal; HD shots may be longer range, and perhaps more likely to be at widely varying angles. (My house has a possible 60' shot at one important spot.) When all is said and done, however, I'll probably simplify things for my girls by choosing a load they're comfortable with, and then let them learn where it hits w/o confusing the issue with differing trajectories.

BTW, I just got a copy of Cirillo's book this past week and read with interest the same passage you discuss, i.e. his "grabber" bullets. Wonder whatever happened to commercial development of that one?

 

[LouisianaMan]

And BTW, Jad, I think the 158g LSWCHP "FBI Load" is superb! It may expand from a 2", and has an outstanding record of expanding from a 4" barrel.

I've got some, and will test side-by-side with my LSWC-K 200g load to see which I'll carry in those 4" 38 SPLs. If I didn't have a possible 60' shot plus intervening leather furniture to worry about in my home, I'd go with the FBI Load w/o question. As it stands, I perceive an above-average need for straight-on, deep penetration in my HD guns (not as much in my SD guns). Since I'm in a rural location, I also have almost no concern about over-penetration. All of that is why my .45LC is loaded with the 255g LFPs at 870fps, and it's my primary HD sidearm. Assuming a meplat of about .38, that .45LC load cuts a permanent wound channel of about .82 caliber, per Beartooth

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I found these 160gr .360" bullets at a gun show that looked just right for building .38 S&W ammo, and they are!



I also found some 200gr bullets I used to replicate the original British 38/200 ammo. They are fun to shoot from a Enfield No.2 but are a bit long so you have to be careful when loading them. (they seat so deeply overpressure is a danger) They aren't as good as the above 160gr bullets.