.38 Special 3-inch barrel performance?

[Shivahasagun]

In all seriousness if your doing this type of exploration, buy quickload or do a favor for someone with the program. Gordon's is also a tool for that type of development. With Gordon's you can add your tests to validate your data... I'm still playing with initial results so I'm not claiming accuracy.

Yea, that sounds like something I'd like!

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Better get Gordon’s while you can. He has passed away, and his wife is keeping the site open for now with a download that has an extended expiration date. Perhaps someone will continue his work. It is an awesome program.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Those XTPs won’t come apart at revolver velocities. I’ve driven them over 2000 fps from a rifle with no problem.

Auto Comp from a 6" 357 will make them come apart on 150lb hogs. I had multiple failures to penetrate the ribs after going through the meat of the front shoulder. Rib shots never touched the off side ribs.
I too have driven them at rifle velocity without blow up before hitting paper targets.
I wouldn't choose them as a defensive round if I have the option of swaged 158 SWCs.

 

[Bfh_auto]

The most appropriate I have are CFE-P and Enforcer.

Never seen data for .38 and Enforcer, though.

Look at 38+P data on Hodgdonreloading.com. Longshot or AA #5 would be my top choices.
CFE-Pistol was very erratic in my experience in 38 special.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Auto Comp from a 6" 357 will make them come apart on 150lb hogs. I had multiple failures to penetrate the ribs after going through the meat of the front shoulder. Rib shots never touched the off side ribs.
I too have driven them at rifle velocity without blow up before hitting paper targets.
I wouldn't choose them as a defensive round if I have the option of swaged 158 SWCs.

Well yeah, on a hog they probably would. For hunting you'd probably want at least a soft point and 158 grain bullets, but I just took it to mean that he didn't want the bullet to fly apart while in flight. I have had that happen with some cheap bullets approaching 2000 fps.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Well yeah, on a hog they probably would. For hunting you'd probably want at least a soft point and 158 grain bullets, but I just took it to mean that he didn't want the bullet to fly apart while in flight. I have had that happen with some cheap bullets approaching 2000 fps.

Well, we'll have to see what the OP says but, I'm thinking maybe this is all an academic exercise, not a practical search for a defensive-carry round. There's lots of scholarly writings on the hazards and pitfalls of carrying handloads and I haven't seen anything indicating these are for strictly self-defense use. I think @Shivahasagun is trying to find an upper-limit load and gather data. Maybe?

Now, here in Florida where we have a VERY strong Castle Doctrine and a history of Grand Juries returning "No-True Bills" in cases where a home-owner defended themselves against even an unarmed intruder using all manner of hunting and handloaded ammo, it's a little different. In your home, against an intruder, the law doesn't question your right to defense of self and home, by any means necessary, nor does it insist you retreat or attempt to negotiate. It does say you can't invite someone in and then claim they are an intruder for the purpose of entrapment, etc. But it's not all that complicated and IIRC, we're one of the few states with such a broadly-interpreted protection of the right to defend hearth and home. I'm also thinking @Shivahasagun is not in Florida so the laws may be different. Either way, I don't recall seeing where this was about making street-carry ammo so it may be a moot point about how durable the bullets are against flesh and bone.

 

[Shivahasagun]

Well yeah, on a hog they probably would. For hunting you'd probably want at least a soft point and 158 grain bullets, but I just took it to mean that he didn't want the bullet to fly apart while in flight. I have had that happen with some cheap bullets approaching 2000 fps.

I meant I didn't want it to come apart when it hit a person or dog trying to take me out.

I'm in FL.

I have a few guns and ammo suitable for defense / carry. It's very possible I would carry my handloads because I have only a small amount of now rare, expensive factory .357 mag left.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I meant I didn't want it to come apart when it hit a person or dog trying to take me out.

I'm in FL.

I have a few guns and ammo suitable for defense / carry. It's very possible I would carry my handloads because I have only a small amount of now rare, expensive factory .357 mag left.

Ah, okay. I didn't understand correctly. You may want to go read this sticky: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...f-handloads-in-self-defense-shootings.821474/

Florida has some very liberal Castle Doctrine laws, including an extension called, "The Stand Your Ground Law," which I won't try to explain or interpret because my degrees are in engineering, not law, but what @Spats McGee addresses in that sticky is a set of serious and legitimate concerns, even in Florida. Not saying you're right or wrong, just saying you got some thinking and planning to do, and a good talk with a lawyer - YOUR lawyer - might not be a bad idea. I can see a politically-minded prosecutor reading this thread and licking their chops at the publicity they can generate for a Senate/House run.

A retired federal court magistrate I knew a few decades back once told me, every elected prosecutor wants to be an elected Senator; except the crooks who want to be Members of the House. They're a menace to the profession.

Anyhoot, hope that makes sense and helps. Probably don't matter but, now you've got some food for thought.

 

[Mycin]

I meant I didn't want it to come apart when it hit a person or dog trying to take me out.

I'm in FL.

I have a few guns and ammo suitable for defense / carry. It's very possible I would carry my handloads because I have only a small amount of now rare, expensive factory .357 mag left.

158gr XTP will not go to pieces from a 3" barrel revolver, especially not in a dog or mugger. My notes say that this bullet is rated by Hornady for 700 - 1400fps. You're unlikely to exceed 1400fps from a 3" barrel.

 

[AJC1]

I have only a small amount of now rare, expensive factory .357 mag left.

What are you saving it for exactly that's more important than SD I have cast in mine because that's what I practice with once or twice a week. They can have all the fun with me in court they want if I live.

 

[Shivahasagun]

158gr XTP will not go to pieces from a 3" barrel revolver, especially not in a dog or mugger. My notes say that this bullet is rated by Hornady for 700 - 1400fps. You're unlikely to exceed 1400fps from a 3" barrel.

No. I was concerned the 125 gr might at 1400+ fps. But like you said, not something I'm going to see from my 3 inch.

 

[Shivahasagun]

What are you saving it for exactly that's more important than SD I have cast in mine because that's what I practice with once or twice a week. They can have all the fun with me in court they want if I live.

It gets used in practice eventually. You'll only find ammo like new to excellent condition in my defense guns.

I'm down to only about 50 rds of factory .357 carry ammo. And that's 3 different kinds.

Not really concerned with carrying handloads because they arent anything "special" or unique. Just mimics factory ammo for less money and is available.

 

[Mycin]

No. I was concerned the 125 gr might at 1400+ fps. But like you said, not something I'm going to see from my 3 inch.

Ah. Right. Well, since the 125gr is rated up to 1600fps, you should be REALLY safe.

FWIW, here are the speed ranges for all the 357 XTP bullets. Hornady used to list these on their web site as part of the bullet specs, but they went away during a site redesign. I'd already copied them into a text file for my own reference.

- 125gr - 850 - 1600fps
- 140gr - 850 - 1600fps
- 158gr - 700 - 1400fps
- 180gr - 900 - 1700fps

I presume that the three lighter bullets were designed for slower speeds to support 38Spl velocities, whereas the 180gr is assumed to be a 357Mag bullet, possibly from a carbine.

 

[Shivahasagun]

I've tested the 125 gr xtp +p in .38 from a snub. ( water) nothin'.

IIRC it wont expand from a 4 inch .38, either.

That guarantees the 158 xtp wont, either.

 

[Shivahasagun]

I don't like how I saw the 125 gr xtp from .357 slipping sideways and / or deviating from a straight path too early in gelatin / water in online tests.

 

[AJC1]

I don't like how I saw the 125 gr xtp from .357 slipping sideways and / or deviating from a straight path too early in gelatin / water in online tests.

The 135 gold dot was literally made for this exact senerio.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The 135 gold dot was literally made for this exact senerio.

Well it sure as heck wasn’t made for hunting. I really miss the 140gr SJHP Speer. Why they stopped making it I’ll never figure out. The XTP are all good for close range deer and pig except the 125gr. Too light. It won’t go through a shoulder for anything. I loaded these up for the 3” Smiths I keep in the desk.

 

[Shivahasagun]

Well dang. Sounds like 158 gr xtp needs a 4 inch barrel at least.

I do have some Hornady Critical Duty .357 135 gr. That seems pretty good. IIRC I got about 1175 from a 2 in LCR. No flash, either. Kick is within tolerance for reasonable follow-ups, too. I usually carry these.

And I just got 500 GT 165 gr .358 lead hollow points in the mail!

Heck I'm leaning towards the .38 +p+ idea with them in .38 cases.

Anyone tested these bullets in water or anything? 950-1000 fps sound good from my 3 inch?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Well dang. Sounds like 158 gr xtp needs a 4 inch barrel at least.

I do have some Hornady Critical Duty .357 135 gr. That seems pretty good. IIRC I got about 1175 from a 2 in LCR. No flash, either. Kick is within tolerance for reasonable follow-ups, too. I usually carry these.

And I just got 500 GT 165 gr .358 lead hollow points in the mail!

Heck I'm leaning towards the .38 +p+ idea with them in .38 cases.

Anyone tested these bullets in water or anything? 950-1000 fps sound good from my 3 inch?

Too fast. Keep the GT 160’s down around 850fps and they’ll stop a boar hog in its tracks. You don’t really need rifle speeds from a snubby to stop a violent critter.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Well dang. Sounds like 158 gr xtp needs a 4 inch barrel at least.

I do have some Hornady Critical Duty .357 135 gr. That seems pretty good. IIRC I got about 1175 from a 2 in LCR. No flash, either. Kick is within tolerance for reasonable follow-ups, too. I usually carry these.

And I just got 500 GT 165 gr .358 lead hollow points in the mail!

Heck I'm leaning towards the .38 +p+ idea with them in .38 cases.

Anyone tested these bullets in water or anything? 950-1000 fps sound good from my 3 inch?

Look at the label on that box I posted. Hornady 125gr XTP JHP over 5.0gr of Unique in a 3” .38Spl. 800fps according to my Chrony F1. That’s more than plenty for a big dog, scared and sick from being abandoned, when it turns bad. Putting it where it counts when it counts is the hardest part.

 

[Shivahasagun]

The 135 gold dot was literally made for this exact senerio.

To not turn sideways in a target?

 

[Shivahasagun]

Look at the label on that box I posted. Hornady 125gr XTP JHP over 5.0gr of Unique in a 3” .38Spl. 800fps according to my Chrony F1. That’s more than plenty for a big dog, scared and sick from being abandoned, when it turns bad. Putting it where it counts when it counts is the hardest part.

The jhp of the xtp will help reduce deflection but I dont think it's going to expand at all.

 

[Shivahasagun]

Too fast. Keep the GT 160’s down around 850fps and they’ll stop a boar hog in its tracks. You don’t really need rifle speeds from a snubby to stop a violent critter.

I'm hoping after I load some I can arrange a test at a relatives house. (Water jugs) if a bullet wont expand in water jugs it wont in anything.

850 fps seems to be the threshold for major brands SWCLHP to even begin to expand.

But the GT bullet may be a different hardness and is a totally different design. Sure has a big, deep cavity.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I'm hoping after I load some I can arrange a test at a relatives house. (Water jugs) if a bullet wont expand in water jugs it wont in anything.

850 fps seems to be the threshold for major brands SWCLHP to even begin to expand.

But the GT bullet may be a different hardness and is a totally different design. Sure has a big, deep cavity.

It’s not just the hardness, it’s the alloy: 2-2-96 is a “balanced” lead alloy that resists flame melt but stays soft enough to mushroom. It’s a good bullet. I really wouldn’t run it faster than 850fps, though.

 

[AJC1]

To not turn sideways in a target?

It has a longer bearing surface and should resist tumbling better. It's ideal for this senerio because it was specifically designed for short barreled pistols. If I could find any Speer products I would be happy, but these are not something I need. I'm looking for their hotcore 3030bullet.